[Rhodes22-list] Hybrid Cars
TN Rhodey
tnrhodey at hotmail.com
Tue Oct 10 12:59:31 EDT 2006
Bill,
I puchased my Honda used and did not see any used Hybrids. I paid way less
(over 7K) than a new Hybrid but I did test drive one and they were nice.
That being said my good friend owns a Civic Hybrid and her MPG is not really
any better than mine. I am curious what MPG do you get? Granted they are
less polluting and that is a good thing. I never by a new car but maybe in a
few years the Hybrids will be the way to go.
Wally
>From: "William E. Wickman" <wewickman at duke-energy.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Hybrid Cars
>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:45:48 -0400
>
>
>Where is everyone's social conscience? Getting to nearly no emissions and
>reducing our dependence on foreign oil. While one hybrid will not cure
>global warming and bring OPEC to its knees, just think about the
>possibilities if half the cars in the US were hybrid? We Americans are
>spoiled. No one wants to pay to clean up the environmental mess that our
>capitalistic money grubbing society has created. We want to have our cake
>and eat it too. If poor native Alaskan's can turn down free oil from
>Venezuela, then we all should be able to cough up a few more dollars for
>vehicles that burn less fuel and make for a cleaner environment.
>
>Man.....I'm starting to sound like a liberal!! But I'm not.
>
>Really, I'm not.
>
>Also, did you factor in the Tax Credit? I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid a
>few months ago and was able to haggle the price down to a point that, with
>the tax credit, the price was nearly equal to the standard Civic (of
>course, I probably could have haggled the price down on the standard model
>as well).
>
>Bottom Line is that people that buy hybrids are not driven solely by
>economics.
>
>Bill Wickman
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill Effros
> <bill at effros.com>
> Sent by: To
> rhodes22-list-bou The Rhodes 22 mail list
> nces at rhodes22.org <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> cc
>
> 10/09/2006 11:31 Subject
> PM [Rhodes22-list] Hybrid Cars
>
>
> Please respond to
> The Rhodes 22
> mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rh
> odes22.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Thanks, Hank,
>
>I did the same math, and came to the same conclusion. But I have a
>special need, and that is why I'm buying the car. I will be doing a
>book tour next Spring, the first of many. I drive from city to city
>because it's so much less a hassle than flying. My interest in the
>Toyota Camry is its range, which is better than 600 miles on a tankful.
>
>When you do the morning news you often have to be at the TV station
>before 6:00 am. If you have driven a couple of hundred miles to get to
>the next city late at night, you don't want to have to drive around to
>find an open gas station, either late at night or early the next
>morning. I like to sleep as close to the first TV station as possible,
>and often they are located in remote places with no nearby gas
>stations. The huge range allows me to drive from one city to the next,
>hitting all the local TV stations the next morning before I have to fill
>the tank and get to the next town.
>
>This is also the reason for not buying a diesel. In many places diesel
>is just too hard to come by.
>
>The last time I did this I bought a Camry that had a 500 plus mile
>range. I didn't often get to the bottom of the tank, but a few times I
>did. I liked the car--it was comfortable and quiet for repeated long
>trips. The new one is supposed to have the same attributes, and the 600
>mile range is the big draw for me.
>
>Bill Effros
>
>Hank wrote:
> > Bill,
> >
> > On the subject of hybrid cars, we recently bought a new car and we were
> > looking at the Honda Civic, both standard and hybrid. For us, the
> > math just
> > didn't work out and we ended up buying the standard version. I'll show
> > you
> > what I mean. FYI, both of the cause were comparable equipped with the
> > only
> > real difference being the drivetrain.
> >
> >
> >
> > Honda Civic
> >
> > MPG
> >
> > Gas Cost/Gal
> >
> > Annual Miles
> >
> > Gas/year (Mileage/MPG)
> >
> > Gas Cost/year
> >
> > Veh Cost
> >
> > # of years to break even
> >
> > Regular
> >
> > 30
> >
> > 2.5
> >
> > 15000
> >
> > 500
> >
> > 1250
> >
> > 18000
> >
> >
> >
> > Hybrid
> >
> > 50
> >
> > 2.5
> >
> > 15000
> >
> > 300
> >
> > 750
> >
> > 22000
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> >
> > At a savings of $500 a year in gas, it would take 8 years for the
> > hybrid to
> > break even with the normal engine version because of the increased
> > purchase
> > price. To me, that is just not economically feasible.
> > Hank
> >
> > On 10/9/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Saroj,
> >>
> >> Just found this. Be careful on geothermal. My brother tried it and
>got
> >> burned--no, that's a bad word word in this instance--he got frozen--it
> >> sucked so much water out of the ground that there was none left for
> >> cooking or bathing--not to mention that it got lukewarm very quickly.
> >>
> >> Bill Effros
> >>
> >> PS -- I've rented the straight diesel cars in Europe and they are
> >> sensational. You can't tell they are diesels any more except when you
> >> keep passing gas pumps without needing any more fuel. I am seriously
> >> considering a hybrid Camry for myself.
> >>
> >> Saroj Gilbert wrote:
> >> > I've heard the deisel - electric cars are available in Europe now..
>so
> >> > maybe not so far away.
> >> >
> >> > I am planning on geothermal which should certainly help with the
> >> > cooling... as it turns out I have to dig a well on this property even
> >> > though it is fairly Urban... a very old and small neighborhood where
> >> > most have wells already so no impetus to provide city water. which
>is
> >> > just fine with me. The well drilling company I plan to use already
>has
> >> > experience drilling the geothermal holes as well... so one-stop
> >> shopping.
> >> >
> >> > Also already planning on the SIP approach... trying to blend the
> >> > energy-efficiency with some interesting architecture aside from the
> >> > typical Colonial or brick ranch that is common in this area. Thought
> >> > seriously about doing a dome, but decided against it for this area
>for
> >> > asset-protection reasons.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for the good info!
> >> >
> >> > Saroj
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
> >> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 1:01 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Bill & Saroj,
> >> >
> >> > Bill, the Jetta will work for me. I've owned a couple of early 80's
> >> > diesel
> >> > Rabbits and a diesel Audi 4000 (same drive train) The Rabbit
>hatchback
> >> is
> >> > coming back but I prefer a sedan. I flew GDL, Mexico all last month
> >> > where
> >> > the Jetta is built. They just settled their strike and hopefully the
> >> > quality will be good.
> >> >
> >> > Saroj, diesel-hybrids are off the shelf technology and my company
> >> did a
> >> > joint-venture with Eaton to produce diesel-hybrid delivery trucks.
> >> Duh!
> >> > Think trains and WW2 submarines. You should expect 80mpg+ when they
> >> come
> >> > but when will that be? I'll move earlier and go with a straight
> >> > diesel and
> >> > hope for rapeseed biodiesel. The only way to go with the home is
> >> > insulated
> >> > concrete forms and geo-thermal radiant heating. Cooling is another
> >> > issue.
> >> > A nuke powerplant running A/C is the ticket. You have no control
> >> > where your
> >> > electrons come from but they probably come from coal.
> >> >
> >> > Didn't we have this same discussion in the 70's?
> >> >
> >> > Brad
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 9/15/06, Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I hear you on that... as for me... I'm looking to diesel hybrid
> >> for my
> >> >> next
> >> >> car... and currently doing intensive research on how to make my new
> >> >> house
> >> >> (yet to be built) use as little non-renewable energy as possible...
> >> >> quite
> >> >> an
> >> >> interesting exploration for me... refreshing information that I
> >> hadn't
> >> >> read
> >> >> too much about since I subscribed to Mother Earth News in the
> >> >> 70's. Heating
> >> >> shouldn't be a problem but dealing with the hot, humid summers
> >> will be
> >> >> challenging.
> >> >>
> >> >> Its hard to balance the economics on electricity usage in this area
> >> >> (S.E.
> >> >> VA) since it is so very low... 6 cents a KW if I remember correctly;
> >> >> however
> >> >> I feel strongly about it and will do whatever I can... luckily I
>work
> >> >> out
> >> >> of
> >> >> my home and the new house will be so close to a lot of services
> >> that I
> >> >> should be able to ride the bike a lot of places.
> >> >>
> >> >> Saroj
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
> >> >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> >> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:54 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Saroj,
> >> >>
> >> >> Maybe, I don't agree with all the premises of the article but
> >> everything
> >> >> does line up for a fall, just not as far as the author suggested.
> >> The
> >> >> unfortunate repercussion is that it will encourage us to go back
> >> to our
> >> >> foolish ways. Peak Oil is coming! The folks who have the most
> >> oil are
> >> >> still the same folks who hate us the most. The two fastest
> >> growing oil
> >> >> consuming nations, China and India, aren't slowing down. China
> >> doesn't
> >> >> give
> >> >> a shit about anything but China, and they're cutting deals
>everywhere
> >> >> for
> >> >> every commodity. I can't make my jet or our equipment burn less
> >> >> fuel, but
> >> >> my next car *will *get 50mpg+. Hopefully it won't smell like
>shrimp.
> >> >>
> >> >> Brad
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 9/15/06, Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That would be good news...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
> >> >> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> >> > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:23 AM
> >> >> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/home/>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thursday, September 14, 2006 - 12:00 AM
> >> >> >
> >> >> > *.*
> >> >> >
> >> >> > **
> >> >> > *
> >> >> > **Analyst predicts plunge in gas prices*
> >> >> >
> >> >> > *By Kevin G. Hall*
> >> >> > *McClatchy Newspapers*
> >> >> >
> >> >> > WASHINGTON — The recent sharp drop in the global price of crude
>oil
> >> >> could
> >> >> > mark the start of a massive sell-off that returns gasoline
> >> prices to
> >> >> lows
> >> >> > not seen since the late 1990s — perhaps as low as $1.15 a
>gallon.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "All the hurricane flags are flying" in oil markets, said Philip
> >> >> Verleger,
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > noted energy consultant who was a lone voice several years ago in
> >> >> warning
> >> >> > that oil prices would soar. Now, he says, they appear to be poised
> >> >> for a
> >> >> > dramatic plunge.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Crude-oil prices have fallen about $14, or roughly 17 percent,
>from
> >> >> their
> >> >> > July 14 peak of $78.40. After falling seven straight days, they
> >> rose
> >> >> > slightly Wednesday in trading on the New York Mercantile
> >> Exchange, to
> >> >> > $63.97, partly in reaction to a government report showing fuel
> >> >> inventories
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > bit lower than expected. But the overall price drop is expected to
> >> >> > continue,
> >> >> > and prices could fall much more in the weeks and months ahead.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Here's why:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > For most of the past two years, oil prices have risen because the
> >> >> world's
> >> >> > oil producers have struggled to keep pace with growing demand,
> >> >> > particularly
> >> >> > from China and India. Spare oil-production capacity grew so tight
> >> that
> >> >> > market players feared that any disruption to oil production could
> >> >> create
> >> >> > shortages.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Fear of disruption focused on fighting in Nigeria, escalating
> >> tensions
> >> >> > over
> >> >> > Iran's nuclear program, violence between Israel and Lebanon that
> >> might
> >> >> > spread to oil-producing neighbors, and the prospect that
>hurricanes
> >> >> might
> >> >> > topple oil facilities in the Gulf of Mexico.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Oil traders bet that such worrisome developments would drive up
>the
> >> >> future
> >> >> > price of oil. Oil is traded in contracts for future delivery, and
> >> >> > companies
> >> >> > that take physical delivery of oil are just a small part of total
> >> >> trading.
> >> >> > Large pension and commodities funds are the big traders and
>they're
> >> >> > seeking
> >> >> > profits. They've sunk $105 billion or more into oil futures in
> >> recent
> >> >> > years,
> >> >> > according to Verleger. Their bets that oil prices would rise in
>the
> >> >> future
> >> >> > bid up the price of oil.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That, in turn, led users of oil to create stockpiles as cushions
> >> >> against
> >> >> > supply disruptions and even higher future prices. Now inventories
> >> >> of oil
> >> >> > are
> >> >> > approaching 1990 levels.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > But many of the conditions that drove investors to bid up oil
> >> >> prices are
> >> >> > ebbing. Tensions over Israel, Lebanon and Nigeria are easing. The
> >> >> > hurricane
> >> >> > season has presented no threat so far to the Gulf of Mexico. The
> >> U.S.
> >> >> peak
> >> >> > summer driving season is over, so gasoline demand is falling.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > With fear of supply disruptions ebbing, oil prices began sliding.
> >> With
> >> >> oil
> >> >> > inventories high, refiners that turn oil into gasoline are
>expected
> >> to
> >> >> cut
> >> >> > production. As refiners cut production, oil companies increasingly
> >> >> risk
> >> >> > getting stuck with excess oil supplies. There's already anecdotal
> >> >> evidence
> >> >> > of oil companies chartering tankers to store excess oil.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > All this is turning financial markets increasingly bearish on oil.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "If we continue to build inventories, and if we have a warm winter
> >> >> like
> >> >> we
> >> >> > had last winter, you could see a large fall in the price of oil,"
> >> said
> >> >> > Gary
> >> >> > Pokoik, who manages Hedge Ventures Energy in Los Angeles, an
>energy
> >> >> hedge
> >> >> > fund. "I think there is still a lot of risk in the market."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > As it stands now, the recent oil-price slump has brought the
> >> national
> >> >> > average for a gallon of unleaded gasoline down to $2.59,
> >> according to
> >> >> the
> >> >> > AAA motor club. In the Seattle area, prices per gallon have
> >> fallen to
> >> >> > $2.856
> >> >> > currently from $3.071 a month ago, a decline of 7 percent,
> >> >> according to
> >> >> > AAA.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Should oil traders fear that this downward price spiral will get
> >> worse
> >> >> and
> >> >> > run for the exits by selling off their futures contracts, Verleger
> >> >> said,
> >> >> > it's not unthinkable that oil prices could return to $15 or less a
> >> >> barrel,
> >> >> > at least temporarily. That could mean gasoline prices as low as
> >> $1.15
> >> >> per
> >> >> > gallon.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Other experts won't guess at a floor price, but they agree that a
> >> race
> >> >> to
> >> >> > the bottom could break out.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "The market may test levels here that are too low to be
>sustained,"
> >> >> said
> >> >> > Clay Seigle, an analyst at Cambridge Energy Research Associates, a
> >> >> > consultancy in Boston.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Monday, the oil-producing cartel OPEC hinted that if prices
>fall
> >> >> > precipitously, OPEC members would cut production to lift them. But
> >> >> that
> >> >> > would take time.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "That takes six to nine months. If we don't have a really cold
> >> winter
> >> >> here
> >> >> > [creating a demand for oil], prices will fall. Literally, you
>don't
> >> >> know
> >> >> > where the floor is," Verleger said. "In a market like this, if
> >> things
> >> >> > start
> >> >> > falling ... prices could take you back to the 1999 levels. It has
> >> >> nothing
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > do with production."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/general/copyright.html>
> >> >> > __________________________________________________
> >> >> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> >> >
> >> >> > __________________________________________________
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> >> >> __________________________________________________
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