[Rhodes22-list] Political:Off to Iraq

Wed Oct 25 14:40:58 EDT 2006

Bill,

I stand corrected that Al Nouri was elected.  I had forgotten that he was
appointed by their legislators.

Your entire theory on enlistments is based upon the fact that you cannot
believe that anyone would be in the military for any reason other than
money.  That is simply not true.  NOBODY is in the military for the money.
It just doesn't pay that well.

The military.com article on Bonuses is baseed upon congressional law.  It
doesn't take into account that all of the services have choosen not to
implement bonuses to the $90K level.  Special Forces soldiers can be
eligible for maybe one bonus in their career as you cannot join the special
forces until you have reached the rank of at least E-4 (approx. 2 years) and
after a 6 year enlistment you will have reached a length of service where
you no longer qualify for bonuses.

Why do you insist on ignoring the facts presented to you by both present and
past members of the military (Phillip and I), rather than believing
something you read on an unofficial, commercial website (military.com).

Hank

On 10/25/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>
> Hank,
>
> Visit
>
> http://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/enlistment-and-reenlistment-bonuses
>
> Again, I just don't have time to chase down all the facts on matters of
> little concern to me.
>
> These bonuses are being offered because the Army found it could not fill
> its ranks without them.  They also lowered their standards.
>
> Special forces guys are being offered more.  Outsourcing the military
> has become very expensive.  If we don't match the pay offered by outside
> contractors, people just take off their uniforms and do the same jobs
> for much greater pay.  I understand that truck drivers can earn
> $75,000-$100,000 if they simply put their lives on the line for private
> contractors.  We have more than 20,000 employees of private contractors
> in Iraq right now.  The private contractors are having no trouble making
> their enlistment quotas.
>
> We have upped the ante by re-interpreting the Geneva Convention.
> According to our new rules, these people now can be classified as "Enemy
> Combatants" by our enemies and tortured or killed in any way we haven't
> already thought of and specifically prohibited.
>
> Bill Effros
>
> Hank wrote:
> > Bill, you do have that wrong.  People are signing up because they
> > believe in
> > this cause, whether or not you want to believe it.  The largest
> > enlistment
> > bonuses are, I think, somewhere in the $30,000 range and they go to the
> > hardest jobs to fill, Military Intelligence, Translators, etc.  Grunts
> > get
> > little or no bonuses as they are much easier to fill.  As Phillip said,
> > bonuses only go to troops in the 1st or 2nd re-enlistment.  In my 20
> > years,
> > I never received a bonus, as I was not in an "in demand" career field.
> >
> > Hank
> >
> > On 10/25/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hank,
> >>
> >> Philip said people who complain about casualties can't explain
> >> reenlistment rates.  I said that signing bonuses explain reenlistment
> >> rates.
> >>
> >> I infer from your note that Philip is an officer and received a
> "signing
> >> bonus" or some other military euphemism for "huge amount of money paid
> >> to induce people to risk their lives".  It is my understanding that
> some
> >> of these payments are in excess of $100,000.  Do I have that wrong?
> >>
> >> Bill Effros
> >>
> >> Hank wrote:
> >> > Bill,
> >> >
> >> > Once again, you spoke with thinking or checking your facts.  Officers
> >> > do not
> >> > re-enlist.  Re-enlistment bonuses are only paid to enlisted.  Some
> >> > Officers
> >> > in certain specialties such as Doctors and Dentists get yearly
> bonuses
> >> > but
> >> > this is because of their extensive training and desparity with pay in
> >> the
> >> > civilian sector.
> >> >
> >> > Hank
> >> >
> >> > On 10/25/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Brad,
> >> >>
> >> >> As Philip well knows, the Army is paying huge reenlistment
> >> bonuses.  In
> >> >> fact, I believe Philip was one of the recipients.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have no problem with that, but let's not confuse a mercenary army
> >> with
> >> >> a patriotic army.
> >> >>
> >> >> Bill Effros
> >> >>
> >> >> 3drecon at comcast.net wrote:
> >> >> > Brad,
> >> >> >     The point Ron made about the soldier casualties is a common
> >> >> complaint.  What they cannot explain is why the reenlistment and
> >> >> extension
> >> >> rate is higher for those who have gone to the "sandbox" than in the
> >> >> general
> >> >> population.  Everyone, (I say again) Everyone, in the military
> to-day
> >> >> is a
> >> >> volunteer.  No one, at this point in time, can say they didn't
> expect
> >> >> to go
> >> >> to war (that might have been an argument in 2001 but not now, an
> >> >> argument
> >> >> for which I have little sympathy.  The military is not here for
> >> social
> >> >> benefit but for fighting).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > LTC Philip Esteban
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -------------- Original message --------------
> >> >> > From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Common leftest screed (thank-you Bill) , I've read your post
> twice
> >> >> Ron
> >> >> and
> >> >> >> still can't find any new ideas.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> As to North Korea, I believe it was the "negotiations" and
> >> >> appeasement
> >> >> of
> >> >> >> the previous administration that got us into this mess. How
> should
> >> we
> >> >> >> respond? We have roughly 30,000 of our own troops in harms way on
> >> the
> >> >> >> border (been there since the 50's) plus several million South
> >> >> Koreans.
> >> >> The
> >> >> >> North can lob 5000 conventional shells at once and we have to
> >> figure
> >> >> out
> >> >> >> which one contains the nuke. Yes indeed, what a mess. Our best
> >> hope
> >> >> there
> >> >> >> is help from China. More troops on the ground would only mean
> more
> >> >> troops
> >> >> >> killed in the first day. We should think twice about allowing a
> >> >> similar
> >> >> >> situation with another rouge nation developing again, hence our
> >> >> invasion of
> >> >> >> Iraq. After all, regime change was the official policy of the
> >> Clinton
> >> >> >> administration. Let me repeat this one more time - the
> >> >> authorization to
> >> >> >> invade Iraq was approved by the Congress. Of course some will say
> >> for
> >> >> >> political reasons they were duped, but they had access to the
> same
> >> >> >> intel - politics as usual.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> How many Iraqi citizens were killed by Saddam? A hell of a lot
> >> more
> >> >> than
> >> >> >> by our invasion. How many more will be killed if we leave. John
> >> Kerry
> >> >> >> estimated less than 300,000 in Vietnam. He was only off by 3
> >> million.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What do you think we should do Ron, pull out and declare victory?
> >> >> Well,
> >> >> if
> >> >> >> so, why quit at half-measures. Let's disband the TSA and
> eliminate
> >> >> the
> >> >> long
> >> >> >> line at the airports. After all, we have no enemies from the
> crazy
> >> >> fringe
> >> >> >> of the Islamic world, right? Let's kiss and make up with the
> >> >> French so
> >> >> >> they'll come to our side and bravely fight, just as they are in
> >> their
> >> >> own
> >> >> >> country right now. Ah yes, those wonderful allies we pissed off.
> >> >> Please
> >> >> >> remind me who we offended that weren't trading goods with Saddam.
> >> >> Germany,
> >> >> >> nope! Russia, nope! China, silly question! I forget, help me
> here,
> >> >> who
> >> >> >> are these allies again?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> This war is ugly, they all are. We went for the right reasons.
> >> >> What we
> >> >> are
> >> >> >> seeing now is not unlike Tet in Vietnam. We won that remember,
> and
> >> >> then
> >> >> >> gave the enemy time to regroup at the peace table. Indeed,
> history
> >> >> can
> >> >> be a
> >> >> >> bitch.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Brad
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On 10/24/06, Ronald Lipton wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> New idea? Better ideas?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> - Did I think invading Iraq was a good idea? NO
> >> >> >>> Were there weapons of mass distruction - NO
> >> >> >>> Were there real terrorist bases - NO
> >> >> >>> Did we give any thought to the internal politics? NO
> >> >> >>> Did we alienate our allies by our arrogance? YES.
> >> >> >>> Have we crippled our volunteer forces by throwing
> >> >> >>> away lives in a worse than useless situation?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> How many soldiers have been killed? (~2900)
> >> >> >>> Maimed - many more
> >> >> >>> How many Iraqi civilians?
> >> >> >>> How many of their families blame the US and will take up
> >> terrorism?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> We have been weakened to the point that we can't
> >> >> >>> effectively respond to real threats from N. Korea.
> >> >> >>> God what a mess.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I don't see any real thought given to actions which gravely
> >> >> >>> affect the US and the rest of the world.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I don't want to see this country continue to be run by a group
> >> >> >>> of idiots and ideologues who seem to be completely disconnected
> >> >> >>> from reality. If soldiers are put in harms way there should be a
> >> >> >>> good reason. I see nothing but negative consequences.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Do I have better Ideas? It's like asking someone pushed out
> >> >> >>> of a window - how to get back up there?
> >> >> >>> Is there any path out of this mess - you tell me, but I believe
> >> that
> >> >> >>> this is the most disastrous administration in the history of
> this
> >> >> >>> country. Nero probably did a worse job for Rome.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Ron
> >> >> >>> On Oct 23, 2006, at 10:42 PM, Brad Haslett wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>> Bob,
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> Thanks for the post. There are letters like this quite often on
> >> the
> >> >> >>>> milblogs I frequent. Also, I have a co-worker with a Marine
> >> son in
> >> >> >>>> Iraq who
> >> >> >>>> forwards updates from time to time. This may be a SHOCK to the
> >> >> >>>> lefties in
> >> >> >>>> the world but our military is all volunteer and for the most
> >> part
> >> >> very
> >> >> >>>> motivated. The reaction you got on the list was predictable and
> >> not
> >> >> >>>> unlike
> >> >> >>>> the reactions from the usual suspects anytime something that
> >> >> doesn't
> >> >> >>>> fit
> >> >> >>>> their perceptions gets published. They get the New York times
> >> >> version
> >> >> >>>> of
> >> >> >>>> reality everyday from someone who's never been out of the Green
> >> >> Zone
> >> >> >>>> and
> >> >> >>>> believe that, but gawd forbid they listen to the wisdom of a
> >> common
> >> >> >>>> foot-soldier. No one likes this war, or any war for that
> matter,
> >> >> but
> >> >> >>>> this
> >> >> >>>> kid in the letter pretty much nailed it. We fight them there
> now
> >> or
> >> >> >>>> here
> >> >> >>>> later. Did you see on the news this evening that youths are
> >> burning
> >> >> >>>> buses
> >> >> >>>> in France? Nope? What kind of youths? Of course the French
> can't
> >> >> say
> >> >> >>>> it. Radical Islamists! Keep your head in the sand folks. This
> >> ain't
> >> >> >>>> goin'
> >> >> >>>> away anytime soon. We can argue about the methods or the chosen
> >> >> >>>> battlefield
> >> >> >>>> but the war declared by them a long time ago. What was our
> first
> >> >> >>>> reaction? Wear sweaters!
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> Here's what really pisses me off. Where are the new ideas? All
> I
> >> >> >>>> hear this
> >> >> >>>> election cycle is let's tuck tail and run, then hope for the
> >> >> best. Is
> >> >> >>>> this
> >> >> >>>> a strategy? Criticism and disagreement is one thing -
> attempting
> >> >> >>>> dialogue
> >> >> >>>> with, or worse, ignoring enemies who want to cut your head
> >> off is
> >> >> >>>> stupid. Oh
> >> >> >>>> I forget, cutting off heads is only for old time's sake, until
> >> they
> >> >> >>>> can get
> >> >> >>>> their WMD programs running again.
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> Brad
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> On 10/23/06, Bob Keller wrote:
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Got this from my brother and wanted to pass it on.
> >> >> >>>>> Bob
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> This is from a co-worker at HP who's son left for Iraq today.
> >> This
> >> >> >>>>> comes
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> to
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> me directly from his Dad. I will be getting periodic updates
> >> from
> >> >> him
> >> >> >>>>> and
> >> >> >>>>> will forward. I will take the last name off so as to protect
> >> his
> >> >> >>>>> privacy,
> >> >> >>>>> but forward on, because these brave troops need our continued
> >> >> support
> >> >> >>>>> and
> >> >> >>>>> prayers.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Bill
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Everyone,
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Well after months and months of yakking about it the day is
> >> >> finally
> >> >> >>>>> here?well almost here, just have to go to sleep tonight (we'll
> >> see
> >> >> >>>>> about
> >> >> >>>>> that) and it'll be here tomorrow. I'm sure pretty much
> everyone
> >> is
> >> >> >>>>> wondering what I'm thinking right now, what are my feelings,
> >> >> and all
> >> >> >>>>> that
> >> >> >>>>> other stuff?I guess I'm going to be super-cool and spill it
> for
> >> >> you,
> >> >> >>>>> just
> >> >> >>>>> because I'm that awesome. :c)
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> I'm ready to get going, and I have been ready since my last
> >> >> visit to
> >> >> >>>>> Colorado?sitting around here this last week or so is just
> >> awful,
> >> >> >>>>> waiting
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> is
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> never fun?gives you too much time to think, and a lot of the
> >> time
> >> >> >>>>> thinking
> >> >> >>>>> gets you in trouble. I am ready to wage this war against
> >> >> >>>>> militant-Islam,
> >> >> >>>>> because it is something that absolutely has to be done. Some
> >> >> look at
> >> >> >>>>> Iraq
> >> >> >>>>> and just see Saddam and WMD and that MY BOSS was wrong to go
> in
> >> >> there
> >> >> >>>>> (btw
> >> >> >>>>> we found enough WMD to kill everyone in Baghdad, but I guess
> >> you
> >> >> >>>>> didn't
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> hear
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> or read about that anywhere, ask me if you really want
> >> details?oh,
> >> >> and
> >> >> >>>>> Saddam really was a horrible asshole?pardon my language to
> both
> >> my
> >> >> >>>>> grandmothers?), but it is well past that point?Iraq is the
> line
> >> in
> >> >> the
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> sand
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> between civilized nations and Islamic fascism, because whether
> >> you
> >> >> >>>>> want to
> >> >> >>>>> believe it or not, there are a large group of people out there
> >> who
> >> >> >>>>> want
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> you
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> and everyone else dead unless you convert to their way of
> >> >> thinking.
> >> >> >>>>> The
> >> >> >>>>> great thing about Iraq is that all these idiots have decided
> it
> >> >> is a
> >> >> >>>>> lot
> >> >> >>>>> easier to fight us there than it is to come to the United
> >> >> States and
> >> >> >>>>> fight
> >> >> >>>>> you?which I am fine with, because I'm going to be so horribly
> >> well
> >> >> >>>>> armed
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> and
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> armored that I welcome their best shot at destroying
> >> everything I
> >> >> have
> >> >> >>>>> dedicated my life to defend.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> While I'm gone I encourage all of you to live it up for me?I
> >> can't
> >> >> do
> >> >> >>>>> it,
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> so
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> you all should do it double for me?take those extra few days
> >> >> off of
> >> >> >>>>> work,
> >> >> >>>>> take that trip, try for that double on your dirt bike, fish
> >> >> that run
> >> >> >>>>> one
> >> >> >>>>> more time, let your kid stay up that extra 15 minutes, stay in
> >> the
> >> >> >>>>> duck-blind 15 more minutes after you think the birds have
> >> stopped
> >> >> >>>>> flying,
> >> >> >>>>> drink that extra drink?I think you get the idea?everyone has
> >> that
> >> >> >>>>> area in
> >> >> >>>>> their life where they can indulge, so I encourage you all to
> do
> >> it
> >> >> >>>>> for me.
> >> >> >>>>> The only thing that I am worried about going into Iraq is
> >> >> letting my
> >> >> >>>>> guys
> >> >> >>>>> down, letting all of you down, and letting my country down;
> >> and I
> >> >> can
> >> >> >>>>> tell
> >> >> >>>>> you with all of my heart that it is NOT in my intention to do
> >> >> any of
> >> >> >>>>> those
> >> >> >>>>> things. I promise you all that I will be careful, but at the
> >> same
> >> >> >>>>> time I
> >> >> >>>>> promise that I will kick the ever-living CRAP out of anyone
> >> that
> >> >> >>>>> presents
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> a
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> threat to me or you...they WILL die, and they'll do it before
> I
> >> >> do.
> >> >> >>>>> This
> >> >> >>>>> war is the most important war that has been fought since WW2,
> >> >> easily,
> >> >> >>>>> if
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> not
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> more so. The things that we do tomorrow and in the next five
> >> years
> >> >> >>>>> will
> >> >> >>>>> shape the world as we know it for centuries to come?if we
> leave
> >> >> Iraq
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> before
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> we win the fight then all of the western world is in danger,
> >> just
> >> >> >>>>> remember
> >> >> >>>>> that?and I will elaborate on that fact in the future. So happy
> >> >> >>>>> trails to
> >> >> >>>>> all of you, and I will frequently be in touch, just say a 'lil
> >> >> prayer
> >> >> >>>>> for
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>> me
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> and I'll do alright.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> God Bless and Love,
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Matt
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Matthew
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> 1st Cavalry Division, Ft. Hood TX
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
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> >> >> >>>>
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