[Rhodes22-list] Speaking of politicians.
TN Rhodey
tnrhodey at hotmail.com
Thu Apr 5 12:36:09 EDT 2007
Brad,
I didn't have a question and I would never ask you to do my research. I used
to read your links but quit years ago when I found they often didn't even
support what you were saying. I guess if your sole point is/was Hilary is a
two faced bitch and Clinton fired all 93 and other presidents fired 80 or so
then you are correct. You are incorrect in stating that these firings were
usually done at end of term. My point is Clinton did not start mass firings.
One big difference now....Due to the Patriot Act Bush can replace these guys
without approval. As for the lie? It is fact that the administration stated
they were fired for poor performance and not for political reasons. That sir
WAS a lie. What part of any of the above is not true?
I still think they would have been much better off fessing up from the get
go. Just like I felt Clinton would have been better off saying "I did have
sex with that women....and others too". So as I have said in every post on
this topic....this problem was more a matter of bad timing (half way through
second term), and the BS response afterwards. Add an administration with a
credibilty problem, toss in the Patriot Act loop-hole and things get a
little sticky.
Regarding my sources....What I got off CNN was copies of actual emails and
PDFs of court transcript. They came up first but who cares? Regardless of
what web site one uses for the source of court docs the actual text should
be the same. I am not sure of your point in mentioning FOX verses CNN. Are
you disputing that these are actual transcipts? Facts, facts, facts....not
opinion.
I agreed this should have been much ado about nothing and if fact said so. I
am still not sure you realize this. For the most part this mess was created
in the typical bumbling fashion we have come to expect from current
administration.
Wally
>From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Speaking of politicians.
>Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 08:51:26 -0600
>
>Wally,
>
>Sorry, my ADHD is kicking in again. Exactly what was your question? I
>believe it had something to do with "don't all incoming Presidents fire all
>the Federal Attorneys? And my answer was, No. Only Bill Clinton did that
>in mass. All the others replaced them when their terms expired with
>occasional mid term firings. Use your skills on the DOJ website to confirm
>that. My only reason for mentioning the Clinton firings is to point out
>Hillary's amnesia. ALL Federal Attorney appointments are political so it
>is
>only reasonable to assume that their having been fired is also political to
>whatever degree. I am not wrong about the mass firings (in the last forty
>years or so) and I refuse to do your homework. As to lying - could you be a
>bit more specific? Using the word "performance" as a smoke screen for
>having not followed the POTUS's desires is not lying. Not necessarily good
>PR either, but not lying. Reading something on CNN is not fact. You are
>welcome to throw out FOX News. There, we're even. The fact that you read
>testimony and came up with an opinion is just that, your opinion. As I said
>earlier this morning, investigate the living shit out of this by all means.
>I seriously doubt they'll find a smoking gun, but if they do, smoke'm out.
>The gist of the complaints the White House had against those fired was
>their
>pursuit (or lack of) of voter fraud and illegal immigration with one
>exception - the one from Little Rock was shit-canned to make way for
>someone else as a political favor. Welcome to the real world. If it turns
>out that they were trying to cover for political corruption, take it all
>the
>way to impeachment. Frankly, I think we're killing a lot of trees over
>nothing. Gonzales may be rendered ineffective for a while or perhaps
>permanently. Wasn't that the reason behind this non-scandal from the
>get-go?
>
>Brad
>
>On 4/5/07, TN Rhodey <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Brad, And you say you don't have a pair of rose colored glasses....As
> > usual
> > you never answered my question. I freely admitted I hadn't been
>following
> > this closely. This is not a matter of seeing what you or I want to see.
>So
> > I
> > did a quick check and the facts are simple....
> >
> > First you are wrong about mass AG firings starting will Clinton. A quick
> > check does confirm that new Presidents have been firing AGs going back
>to
> > at
> > least Reagan. It looks like Carter and good old Ike had some firings as
> > well
> > but nothing like the mass numbers since Reagan. Nixon had his own issues
> > with AGs. Since Reagan it has been routine for 80 or more AGs to be
> > dismissed with-in the first 2 years of President's term. Poor old
> > Bill....people just love to blame him for everything. LOL
> >
> > The issue seems to be more a matter of timing, motivation, and the
> > administration's BS response to the public. The reasons cited for
> > dismissals
> > was "poor performance". A quick review of the facts shows this was not
> > true.
> > Internal Emails and pdfs of recent testimony are all on line. It is
>also
> > clear these firings were discussed with Gonzales prior to Gonzales
> > becoming
> > AG. It is also clear that the AG provided misleading information to the
> > Senate. It is also clear the the administration wanted to fire the AG
>over
> > Libby trial.
> >
> > This might have been much ado about nothing if they didn't initially
>fire
> > the AGs and then follow up with annouincement that this was do to poor
> > performance. Of course the fired AGs complained. Wouldn't you? Being
>fired
> > is bad enough but go ahead and tell the world the real reason not a lie.
> > This administration has a history of providing bad information. Why our
> > President's ratings aren't even lower is beyond me.
> >
> > Google is your friend. My sources.. Justive Department site, WIKI, and
> > CNN.
> > Note CNN and WIKI provided the link to actual emails and PDFs of
> > testimony.
> > I did not read any editorials....I want facts not opinions.
> >
> > No spin Brad. Kind of like Dragnet...nothing but the facts. If I have
>the
> > facts wrong set me straight.
> >
> > Wally
> >
> > >From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Speaking of politicians.
> > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:37:30 -0500
> > >
> > >Wally,
> > >
> > >You see what you want to see. This is much to do about nothing! Do
>your
> > >homework and prove me wrong. The facts are what they are, your spin
>sir.
> > >
> > >Brad
> > >
> > >On 4/4/07, TN Rhodey <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Brad,
> > > >
> > > > What?.....This editorial really doesn't address the coment in my
> > > > email.....I
> > > > will do some checking but I think you are wrong about this starting
> > with
> > > > Clinton. I don't think anyone is saying that Clinto did not fire
>AGs.
> > I
> > > > just
> > > > don't think it started with the Clinton's. You post doesn't shed any
> > >light
> > > > in either direction. - Wally
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
> > > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Speaking of politicians.
> > > > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 12:08:47 -0500
> > > > >
> > > > >Wally,
> > > > >
> > > > >This is a 'tempest in a teapot', something, anything, to run
> > >interference
> > > > >during the last two years of a lame duck Presidency. Here is an
> > > > editorial
> > > > >from the WSJ on the subject.
> > > > >
> > > > >Brad
> > > > >
> > > > >---------------
> > > > >
> > > > >*The Hubbell Standard*
> > > > >Hillary Clinton knows all about sacking U.S. Attorneys.
> > > > >
> > > > >*Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:01 a.m.*
> > > > >
> > > > >Congressional Democrats are in full cry over the news this week
>that
> > >the
> > > > >Administration's decision to fire eight U.S. Attorneys originated
> > > > >from--gasp--the White House. Senator Hillary Clinton joined the fun
> > > > >yesterday, blaming President Bush for "the politicization of our
> > > > >prosecutorial system." Oh, my.
> > > > >
> > > > >As it happens, Mrs. Clinton is just the Senator to walk point on
>this
> > > > issue
> > > > >of dismissing U.S. attorneys because she has direct personal
> > >experience.
> > > > In
> > > > >any Congressional probe of the matter, we'd suggest she call
>herself
> > as
> > > > the
> > > > >first witness--and bring along Webster Hubbell as her chief
>counsel.
> > > > >
> > > > >As everyone once knew but has tried to forget, Mr. Hubbell was a
> > former
> > > > >partner of Mrs. Clinton at the Rose Law Firm in Little Rock who
>later
> > > > went
> > > > >to jail for mail fraud and tax evasion. He was also Bill and
>Hillary
> > > > >Clinton's choice as Associate Attorney General in the Justice
> > >Department
> > > > >when Janet Reno, his nominal superior, simultaneously fired all 93
> > U.S.
> > > > >Attorneys in March 1993. Ms. Reno--or Mr. Hubbell--gave them 10
>days
> > to
> > > > >move
> > > > >out of their offices.
> > > > >
> > > > >At the time, President Clinton presented the move as something
> > >perfectly
> > > > >ordinary: "All those people are routinely replaced," he told
> > reporters,
> > > > >"and
> > > > >I have not done anything differently." In fact, the dismissals were
> > > > >unprecedented: Previous Presidents, including Ronald Reagan and
>Jimmy
> > > > >Carter, had both retained holdovers from the previous
>Administration
> > >and
> > > > >only replaced them gradually as their tenures expired. This allowed
> > > > >continuity of leadership within the U.S. Attorney offices during
>the
> > > > >transition.
> > > > >
> > > > >Equally extraordinary were the politics at play in the firings. At
> > the
> > > > >time,
> > > > >Jay Stephens, then U.S. Attorney in the District of Columbia, was
> > > > >investigating then Ways and Means Chairman Dan Rostenkowski, and
>was
> > > > >"within
> > > > >30 days" of making a decision on an indictment. Mr. Rostenkowski,
>who
> > >was
> > > > >shepherding the Clinton's economic program through Congress,
> > eventually
> > > > >went
> > > > >to jail on mail fraud charges and was later pardoned by Mr.
>Clinton.
> > > > >
> > > > >Also at the time, allegations concerning some of the Clintons'
> > >Whitewater
> > > > >dealings were coming to a head. By dismissing all 93 U.S. Attorneys
> > at
> > > > >once,
> > > > >the Clintons conveniently cleared the decks to appoint "Friend of
> > Bill"
> > > > >Paula Casey as the U.S. Attorney for Little Rock. Ms. Casey never
>did
> > > > bring
> > > > >any big Whitewater indictments, and she rejected information from
> > >another
> > > > >FOB, David Hale, on the business practices of the Arkansas elite
> > > > including
> > > > >Mr. Clinton. When it comes to "politicizing" Justice, in short, the
> > >Bush
> > > > >White House is full of amateurs compared to the Clintons.
> > > > >
> > > > > And it may be this very amateurism that explains how the current
> > > > >Administration has managed to turn this routine issue of replacing
> > > > >Presidential appointees into a political fiasco. There was nothing
> > >wrong
> > > > >with replacing the eight Attorneys, all of whom serve at the
> > >President's
> > > > >pleasure. Prosecutors deserve supervision like any other executive
> > >branch
> > > > >appointees.
> > > > >
> > > > >The supposed scandal this week is that Mr. Bush had been informed
> > last
> > > > fall
> > > > >that some U.S. Attorneys had been less than vigorous in pursuing
> > > > >voter-fraud
> > > > >cases and that the President had made the point to Attorney General
> > > > Alberto
> > > > >Gonzales. Voter fraud strikes at the heart of democratic
> > institutions,
> > > > and
> > > > >it was entirely appropriate for Mr. Bush--or any President--to
>insist
> > > > that
> > > > >his appointees act energetically against it.
> > > > >
> > > > >Take sacked U.S. Attorney John McKay from Washington state. In
>2004,
> > >the
> > > > >Governor's race was decided in favor of Democrat Christine Gregoire
> > by
> > > > 129
> > > > >votes on a third recount. As the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and
>other
> > > > media
> > > > >outlets reported, some of the "voters" were deceased, others were
> > > > >registered
> > > > >in storage-rental facilities, and still others were convicted
>felons.
> > > > More
> > > > >than 100 ballots were "discovered" in a Seattle warehouse. None of
> > this
> > > > >constitutes proof that the election was stolen. But it should have
> > been
> > > > >enough to prompt Mr. McKay, a Democrat, to investigate, something
>he
> > > > >declined to do, apparently on grounds that he had better things to
> > do.
> > > > >
> > > > >In New Mexico, another state in which recent elections have been
> > >decided
> > > > by
> > > > >razor thin margins, U.S. Attorney David Iglesias did establish a
> > voter
> > > > >fraud
> > > > >task force in 2004. But it lasted all of 10 weeks before closing
>its
> > > > doors,
> > > > >despite evidence of irregularities by the likes of the Association
>of
> > > > >Community Organizations for Reform Now, or Acorn. As our John Fund
> > > > reported
> > > > >at the time, Acorn's director Matt Henderson refused to answer
> > >questions
> > > > in
> > > > >court about whether his group had illegally made copies of voter
> > > > >registration cards in the run-up to the 2004 election.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for some of the other fired Attorneys, at least one of their
> > > > >dismissals
> > > > >seemed to owe to differences with the Administration about the
>death
> > > > >penalty, another to questions about the Attorney's managerial
>skills.
> > >Not
> > > > >surprisingly, the dismissed Attorneys are insisting their
>dismissals
> > >were
> > > > >unfair, and perhaps in some cases they were. It would not be the
> > first
> > > > time
> > > > >in history that a dismissed employee did not take kindly to his
> > firing,
> > > > nor
> > > > >would it be the first in which an employer sacked the wrong person.
> > No
> > > > >question, the Justice Department and White House have botched the
> > > > handling
> > > > >of this issue from start to finish. But what we don't have here is
> > any
> > > > >serious evidence that the Administration has acted improperly or to
> > > > protect
> > > > >some of its friends. If Democrats want to understand what a real
> > abuse
> > >of
> > > > >power looks like, they can always ask the junior Senator from New
> > York.
> > > > >
> > > > >On 4/4/07, TN Rhodey <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brad,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course the AGs serve at the President's descrection however I
> > >think
> > > > >you
> > > > > > might be wrong about the firings/replacement starting with
> > Clinton.
> > >I
> > > > > > thought the AG firings started at least as far back as Reagan
>and
> > >was
> > > > >then
> > > > > > followed by Bush and Clinton. I thought W's issues have more to
>do
> > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > timing....if he would of done this in the first year or so it
> > would
> > > > have
> > > > > > merely followed precedent ...by waiting he left the door open to
> > > > > > criticism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wally
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
> > > > > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Speaking of politicians.
> > > > > > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:26:04 -0600
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Wally,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >AG's serve at the President's discretion. Clinton wholesale
> > > > replacing
> > > > > > ALL
> > > > > > >of them at once was a first. The press at the time barely
> > mentioned
> > > > it.
> > > > > > >Bush
> > > > > > >replaced 8 out of almost 100. Big deal. This is a huge
> > non-story
> > > > that
> > > > > > >ranks right up there with the one about whats-her-name dying,
>you
> > > > know
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > >one, that blonde chick with the big hooters.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I've been tied down with airplane hangar issues and taxes but
> > plan
> > >to
> > > > >get
> > > > > > >on
> > > > > > >the lake soon. I haven't bothered to look and see if the front
> > >that
> > > > > > passed
> > > > > > >here last night has made it past you, but it is chilly this
> > >morning.
> > > > >At
> > > > > > >least there's some wind.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Brad
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >On 4/4/07, TN Rhodey <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The sailing here has been great the last few days!!! I have
> > >been
> > > > > > trying
> > > > > > > > NOT
> > > > > > > > to follow the AG firings but doesn't every President do the
> > same
> > > > >thing
> > > > > > > > Clinton did? I thought this was pretty standard when a new
> > pres
> > > > came
> > > > > > > > in.....this may be a matter of bad timing? Wally
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > >
> > > > > > > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Speaking of politicians.
> > > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 07:29:24 -0600
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Rummy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Speaking of amnesia, last Sunday we had George
>Stephanopoulos
> > >on
> > > > >his
> > > > > > >ABC
> > > > > > > > >news show discussing the firing of eight Attorney Generals,
>a
> > > > > > non-event
> > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > >there ever was one, and little Georgie keeps a straight
>face
> > > > >through
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > >whole thing. What a fine piece of acting. Did George
>share
> > >his
> > > > > > > > experience
> > > > > > > > >as spokesperson for the Clinton administration explaining
>the
> > > > >firing
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >all,
> > > > > > > > >every single friggin' AG in the US, including the one in
> > Little
> > > > >Rock
> > > > > > > > >investigating Whitewater? No, he continued on, sure that
> > most
> > >of
> > > > >the
> > > > > > > > >country is too stupid to know or care. He was right. Want
>to
> > >know
> > > > >how
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > >press coverage that got when it happened? About 20 seconds
> > on
> > > > one
> > > > > > > > network.
> > > > > > > > >Fair and balanced?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Brad
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >On 4/4/07, R22RumRunner at aol.com <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
>wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Breaking News
> > > > > > > > > > Scientists Study Memory Loss Among Politicians
> > > > > > > > > > Near-amnesia Reaching Epidemic Proportions, Experts Say
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > An "unprecedented epidemic of memory loss" is
> > > > > > afflicting America's
> > > > > > > > > > politicians, making it virtually impossible for them to
> > > > >remember
> > > > > > >key
> > > > > > > > > > phone
> > > > > > > > > > conversations, meetings, and memos, a spokesman for the
> > > > world's
> > > > > > > > leading
> > > > > > > > > > brain
> > > > > > > > > > scientists said today.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The spokesman, Dr. Hiroshi Kyosuke of the University of
> > > > Tokyo,
> > > > >is
> > > > > > >one
> > > > > > > > >of
> > > > > > > > > > over four hundred eminent brain scientists who have
> > gathered
> > > > in
> > > > > > >Oslo,
> > > > > > > > > > Norway
> > > > > > > > > > this week for a high-level research conference to
> > probe the
> > > > > > recent
> > > > > > > > > > phenomenon
> > > > > > > > > > of memory loss that has plagued the nation's
>politicians.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "The question at hand is this: why are politicians so
> > good
> > >at
> > > > > > > > >remembering
> > > > > > > > > > contributors' names and phone numbers but so bad at
> > > > remembering
> > > > > > > > > > everything else?
> > > > > > > > > > " Dr. Kyosuke said.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Over the course of the conference, brain scientists
>have
> > > > > > presented
> > > > > > > > > > research
> > > > > > > > > > papers on a variety of subjects related to memory loss,
> > >such
> > > > as
> > > > > > > > former
> > > > > > > > > > New
> > > > > > > > > > York mayor Rudolph Giuliani's inability to remember a
> > > > briefing
> > > > >he
> > > > > > > > > > received
> > > > > > > > > > about former police commissioner Bernard Kerik's
>possible
> > > > ties
> > > > >to
> > > > > > > > > > organized
> > > > > > > > > > crime.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "That seems like the sort of thing that a normal human
> > > > > > brain would
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > difficulty remembering," Dr. Kyosuke said. "What we are
> > > > >learning
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > >this
> > > > > > > > > > conference is that when it comes to politicians'
>brains,
> > we
> > > > >have
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > >much
> > > > > > > > > > more to
> > > > > > > > > > learn."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, a full day of the conference was devoted to
>a
> > > > paper
> > > > > > > > >entitled,
> > > > > > > > > > "
> > > > > > > > > > The Neuroscience of Scooter Libby," followed by a
>keynote
> > > > >address
> > > > > > > > given
> > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > While many attendees considered Mr. Gonzales' speech a
> > > > >highpoint
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > conference, the Attorney General offered a different
> > > > assessment:
> > > > > > "I
> > > > > > > > >have
> > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > recollection of it."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Elsewhere, President Bush said he would devote the
> > >remainder
> > > > of
> > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > >term
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > fighting global warming, adding, "April Fools!"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's free
>at
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.aol.com.
> > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
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