[Rhodes22-list] Political: "Winning" the war in Iraq

[Just bent]

They are all citizens, soldiers included. They should have made it clear to
all the "citizens" that there is a temporary ban on firearms. ANYONE seen
with a fire arm or looting will be considered an enemy & fired opon. I don't
think too many law abidding citizens would be walking the streets with
gernade launchers trying to steal anything they can find. 
Victory is when you win & it's over. That's not the way this is going to
play out. There will always be extreme muslims that want to kill Americans.
I think Its a good thing that they are gathering in Iraq )one specific
place) to fight us, they are easier to kill that way. This will continue
until the muslim parents stop teaching there children to hate & kill
Americans and we have killed off all the radicals. 
Jb









john Belanger wrote:
> 
> jb
>   the running wild in the streets was a mob of citizens 
>   the meltaway was an army in retreat (soldiers always do that when they
> desert their army after a defeat). 
>   kill who? every iraqi who has a gun to defend himself in a lawless
> country?
>   let me define victory for iraq (provided it stays togethr as one
> country): when the green zone does not have to be defended like a castle
> or fortress and people can walk the streets in safety. anything short of
> that is not victory. how long.....how much.....
> Just bent <j.bulfer at jbtek.com> wrote:
>   
> With that attitude, no there isn't. You sound like what's his name in the
> Senate. 
> We were not wrong to go there, we just screwed it up after we got there.
> You
> can't let your enemy take of there uniform and "melt away" as they said
> when
> we invaded. You have to kill them or they will kill you. We let them run
> wild in the streets & do as they please, no rule of law. That was the
> start.
> If we don't take the gloves of with this surge and win this battle in
> Iraq,
> we will pay a very big price. 
> 
> Jb
> Just bent
> Phoenix, AZ
> 
> 
> Robert Skinner wrote:
>> 
>> OK, Rummy, I'm with you.
>> Let's stir things up a little.
>> 
>> There's no such thing as "Winning" the war in Iraq.
>> 
>> There is such a thing as tracking down terrorists 
>> and killing them wherever they are -- if and only 
>> if we ally with our neighbors on this planet.
>> 
>> ------------------------
>> 
>> There have been so many defections from the Iraqi 
>> legislature that they will no longer have a quorum.
>> 
>> So they cannot accomplish the objectives laid down 
>> as the basis for the "surge" (read: continuation 
>> of the occupation of Iraq by the military-industrial 
>> complex that Eisenhauer warned us about in the '50s).
>> 
>> I did not nor do I believe now that we can impose the
>> mechanisms of 21st century government on a society 
>> that clings to 7th century ideology.
>> 
>> I sent the included message last year (see "Original
>> Message"), and have no reason to change my position now.
>> 
>> ------------------------
>> 
>> Getting out of Iraq is no dishonor to the many US 
>> fighting men and women who have died following the 
>> orders of our president. It is we at home who 
>> dishonor them by allowing Bush and his sycophants 
>> to stay in power.
>> 
>> We were wrong to go there.
>> We are wrong to think that we can solve their problems.
>> We are wrong to think that we can stop terrorists there.
>> We are wrong to prop up a government that cannot function.
>> 
>> We are wrong and cowardly to accept the erosion of our 
>> constitutional rights by a deceitful megalomaniac.
>> 
>> Time for a reality check!
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> That should set the cat among the pigeons. Have fun 
>> while I am gone. I hope that the list survives in its 
>> barroom form. Good sailors have many interests, and 
>> will congregate where discussion is not limited.
>> 
>> Now I have to go pack for a trip, careful to avoid
>> carrying a pocket knife lest I be branded a terrorist.
>> I and the rest of the passengers should instead be 
>> carrying sufficient fire power to fend off an attempt
>> to hijack the plane.
>> 
>> Robert Skinner
>> 
>> ========================================================
>> 
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Political/Historical: "Winning" the war in Iraq
>> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:06:46 -0500
>> From: Robert Skinner 
>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list 
>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list 
>> 
>> "Winning" the war on terrorism:
>> 
>> Herb, unless and until we nail Osama and his next couple of 
>> levels of command, and I mean dead, destroyed, vaporized 
>> without any holy relics left, and continue taking heads of 
>> islamic AND other terrorists for the next ten years, until 
>> the terrorists are terrified wherever they are -- this 
>> "war" cannot be nor will it be won. 
>> 
>> It will not be won on the land by occupying armies. It 
>> will be won in the minds of those who want to enjoy a 
>> peaceful existence, and those who would disrupt states in 
>> the name of any ideal. It will be won when decent people 
>> will not regard harboring terrorists as the only way to 
>> avoid personal poverty, death and destruction. 
>> 
>> The world is no longer carved up into nationalistic 
>> fiefdoms. Like it or not, all borders are porous. And 
>> some people are both pissed off and effective. Others will 
>> channel the pissed off people's disaffection to their own 
>> ends. All politics may be local, but the terrorist is and 
>> will be international.
>> 
>> If ever the term "police action" (so incorrectly applied in 
>> the past) was ever justified, this situation is the proper 
>> nominee. And the neighborhood cop better form a good 
>> relationship with the community, or he is dead or 
>> ineffective.
>> 
>> Concerning Iraq, specifically:
>> 
>> I have said in the past, and I will say again -- the 
>> problem in Iraq is a civil war between Kurds, Shiites, and 
>> Sunnis. 
>> 
>> Just as the czars, Stalin, and his successors were only 
>> able to hold Russia together with dictatorial power, so 
>> the politically convenient kludge of 20th century Iraq 
>> will only be held together by another dictator such as 
>> Saddam.
>> 
>> We must not allow ourselves to be captivated (or impaled) 
>> by the horns of a false dilemma -- the options for our 
>> relationship to Iraq are not "stay the course" or "cut and 
>> run". Rather, we must strip away the political fog 
>> obscuring our vision and recognize the current realities 
>> of Iraqi socio-political dynamics.
>> 
>> So far, it can be effectively argued that our "help" in 
>> Iraq has been on the whole divisive and destructive. It is
>> time to clean up our act and put force where it is needed, and 
>> keep our hands off where our efforts will do no good. And, 
>> with the help of any and all deities and other good 
>> advisors, gather and attend to the intel to understand the 
>> difference.
>> 
>> /Robert
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>> ... If we lose this war, it will only be because of leaving
>>> before we win. If we do that, you can bet our enemies will
>>> decide that we no longer have the stomach or will to win a
>>> war. 9/11 will seem like nothing compared to what will be
>>> headed our way.
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>> 
>> 
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