[Rhodes22-list] microbursts on the Neuse

Sun Dec 16 22:04:47 EST 2007

Hi Mary Lou,

Thanks for recalling that.  That capsize was apparently about ten years ago
on the Neuse River near New Bern.  As a new member of Blackbeard Sailing
Club in New Bern (March 2007) it has special interest to me.  It could
happen again.  

       "I frankly, never imagined that the Neuse River could generate that
kind of wave or that we would encounter a storm of that ferocity without
some kind of warning." - Paul Cleavenger

Blackbeard sits off upper Broad Creek, a tributary of the Neuse.  The Neuse
River downstream of New Bern is about 5 miles wide or so and it's 23 miles
from New Bern to Oriental, then another 45 miles from Oriental to Ocracoke
Island on the Outer Banks as the Neuse ends and the Pamlico Sound begins.
It's all thin water less than 20' and, around New Bern, mostly less than
10'.   Nice mud bottom most places, like the Chesapeake.  Near New Bern the
river runs out from NW to SE, then turns at Minnesott and runs from SW to
NE, a 90 degree turn to the left going out to the sound.  Under certain
specific and rare weather conditions this geography makes for unusual water
levels on the river.  There's a 50 mile fetch from Ocracoke and big waves
can develop all the way from the Pamlico to Minnesott during a Nor'easter.
When a Nor'easter blows (from the NE, obviously) it blows lots of water from
the Pamlico Sound and it funnels up the river causing pretty big wind tides
on the upper parts of the river.  The water is forced past Minnesott and it
has no place to go but to turn right and head upriver to New Bern.  A two to
three foot wind driven flood tide is not uncommon in these conditions.
Also, when there is a sustained strong wind from the SW blowing across the
shallow Pamilco it sucks all the water from the Neuse out to Pamilco to fill
the void left by the old Pamilco water now blown to Ocracoke.  This happens
infrequently, but it did happen earlier this year and most of the boats at
Blackbeard were left high and dry on the mud until the wind changed.

Applying this background to reading Paul Cleavenger's account of his capsize
on the Neuse, I can easily imagine a microburst or small tornado on the
Pamlico generating "instant effect" wind tide and producing a six to eight
foot wave, with accompanying very high winds, swiftly moving up the river.
Paul's account seems realistic and believable, although I learned from
talking with other Blackbeard club members, it does not happen often.
Cleavenger apparently took the wave on the port quarter motoring home under
bare poles, broached on the wave, and took a simultaneous or subsequent
knock down in the microburst's hurricane force winds.   

I have been wondering what, if anything, could be done to better survive in
those conditions.  Frankly, I'm not sure any small sailboat could withstand
85 mph winds, but Paul supplies a good answer:

       "I have no doubt that we could have probably taken on the storm
without loss if I had understood what we were getting into. By turning into
the storm and taking the waves on the bow, it would have been a nasty ride
but do-able."  - Paul Cleavenger

So perhaps bare poles and motoring, turning into the wave at about a 45
angle might be a more survivable approach.  How much boatspeed would be
best?  Is more speed better to help climb over the wave without stalling?
Or, if given enough time and a shallow mud bottom, would it be better to set
an anchor and assume the wave and wind would approach from the same
direction?  I hope someone with more knowledge and experience with summer
storms and eight foot waves than me would comment on this.  

The ramps we used on the upper Chesapeake were at Caso Rio Marina in Mayo,
MD, about ten miles south of Annapolis near the West River.  It's a
friendly, laid-back place and they only charged $5/night to store the trucks
and trailers.

Best,

PT

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Mary Lou Troy
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 10:28 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] getting started

I was relying on memory so I had to go look it up. The story is on 

the R22 FAQ site.

http://www.geocities.com/blew_skies/capsize.html

Interesting that Stan says  "Re "just" floating, the boat floats very 

high right side up - but the very design that keeps it high in the 

water if it develops a leak, keeps it low in the water when upside down."

ML

At 10:09 PM 12/15/2007, you wrote:

>Mary Lou could well be right about the capsize location.. I thought I read
it

>was around here. The story on the boat is the same

> 

> 

>Mary Lou Troy-2 wrote:

> >

> > HI Tom,

> > Welcome to the list. I missed your original message but saw Rory's

> > reply. We sail out of Rock Hall but make it down to the West River

> > every now and then. I believe Peter Thorn from NC has launched at

> > Holiday Hill on a couple of his trips to the Chesapeake with his boat

> > Raven.

> >

> > Our boat, Fretless, is a 1991 boat refurbished in 1998 and as far as

> > I know has a conventional board. I think I'd spend more time worrying

> > about the other options. One of the nice things about buying a

> > recycled R22 is that you get a semi-custom boat tailored to how you

> > want to use it. Think long and hard about your expected uses and go

> > from there. In our case we knew we wanted to do a lot of overnighting

> > and cruises of up to a week or so and looked for an interior and

> > options that seemed to suit that purpose.

> >

> > I believe the boat that Rory was talking about that capsized was in

> > NC and capsized as the result of a microburst pushing a wall of wind

> > and water that caught the boat on the stern quarter. Tornados were

> > reported in the area. In that case the boat floated upside down and

> > was not righted until the rigging was cut away. A large number of

> > boats were sunk that day. The Rhodes 22 was upside down but it

> > floated. This is the only instance I have ever heard about a R22

> > actually completely capsizing. Under "normal" severe conditions the

> > Rhodes will do quite well.

> >

> > Best wishes and good luck.

> >

> > Mary Lou

> > 1991 R22  Fretless

> > Rock Hall, MD

> >

> > At 06:22 PM 12/15/2007, you wrote:

> >

> >>Welcome,

> >>     I am across the bay from you on Tilghman Island and would be happy
to

> >>help . There a number of Rhodes on the bay.. I have a 2000 referb and

> >>frankly I don't know if it has the diamond keel or not.

> >>I suspect it does.. I would doubt that the keel style has all that much

> >>effect on sailability but I would leave that answer to others.. A new
boat

> >>might entail a longer wait ..

> >>            I don't know quite what you mean by self righting.. If the

> >> boat

> >>is heeled over hard, the hull drag will slow you enough to keep from

> >>capsizing in any situation I have seen.. I have had it hard on the rail

>lots

> >>of times.It is fun but not really where you want to be if trimmed right

>for

> >>speed.

> >>That being said, a microburst did capsize a Rhodes several years ago
here

> >>near Knapps Narrows. The mast I believe was impaled in the mud and

>prevented

> >>it from geting righted.. I don't know what would happen if it were deep

> >>enough to do a full turtle.. It has lots of flotation. Stan would have
to

> >>tell you how a fully water loaded Rhodes will float but I think it would

> >>sink only as far as the gunwales. I do not know of a safer boat in its

>size

> >>range..If sudden storms are your concern.. reef 95% of your sails for

> >>stability and /or head into the wind using the motor or anchor. The
upper

> >>and middle Bay are so narrow, you are not far from some shelter most of

>the

> >>time. Lower bay can be a good bit worse though there are some pretty
rough

> >>conditions on occasion in upper and middle.. Talk to as many experienced

> >>sailors as you can find..

> >>They will be happy to share their experiences and horror stories with

> >>you..:-) How they reacted to problems is always a lesson in what to do
or

> >>not to do.

> >>                                 Rory

> >>

> >>

> >>Tom Hogarty wrote:

> >> >

> >> > Hello, I'm new to sailing, just leased a slip on the Chesapeake,

> >> Holiday

> >> > Hill Marina, Mayo, Maryland, and have decided to get a Rhodes.  Stan

> >> just

> >> > received our deposit, and we have not yet decided which boat to

> >> purchase.

> >> > Does anyone on this list have one for sale?  Does anyone have enough

> >> > experience with the new diamond keel to say it justify the cost of a

> >> new

> >> > boat?  Does anything remotely related to a boat have to be justified?

> >> > I understand that these are hard to capsize and have positive

> >> flotation,

> >> > are they self righting as well?

> >> >

> >> > Many thanks,

> >> > Tom Hogarty

> >> >

> >>

> >>--

> >>View this message in context:

> >>http://www.nabble.com/getting-started-tp14354442p14356298.html

> >>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

> >>

> >>__________________________________________________

> >>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list

> >>

> >>

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> >

> > __________________________________________________

> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list

> >

> >

> 

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> 

>__________________________________________________

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> 

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