[Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"

[JbTek]

yes, I follow
Jb
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"


> Wally,
>
> There are a lot of newbies currently on the list trying to figure out
> how to configure their boats. Most of them do not seem to possess your
> level of sophistication. I know what you mean, but I don't think they
> necessarily do.
>
> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I also sit on the lee side
> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is because there is less
> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I believe there is also a
> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy upright r-22 so your top
> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull speed is less when heeled.
> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give me some good wind and I
> can plane upright at more than the hull speed of the boat every time.
>
> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always have enough wind. Father's
> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there you can't use your
> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat speed--we must use a GPS. The
> boat doesn't have enough power to go through the water at more than 6.25
> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
>
> Bill Effros
>
> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My original post stated you
> > may have to reef sooner with IMF than standard. I wasn't really
> > commenting about reefing sail shape or configurations.
> >
> > One thing you need to consider is the cut of the sails unfurled and/or
> > reefed. This is just important as the size. To my eye it looks like
> > the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is higher than standard
> > main and perhaps a little further aft. With standard main you can
> > further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and cunningham controls.
> >
> > Also my boat likes a little heel and in light air I sit on lee side to
> > create heel....and I go faster.
> >
> > Wally
> >
> >> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> >> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
> >>
> >> Jim,
> >>
> >> I think you must add the optimal heeling angle to your equations.
> >>
> >> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle of heel, none of the
> >> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel, whether a standard or an
> >> IMF is deployed.
> >>
> >> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more sail than it needs that it
> >> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of wind--the only significant
> >> variable is the skill of the captain.
> >>
> >> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to bring the boat on plane. As
> >> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you can make the boat
> >> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone doing it while heeled over.
> >>
> >> Bill Effros
> >>
> >> Jim Connolly wrote:
> >>> It seems to me that the difference between IMF and conventional from a
> >>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
> >>>
> >>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and the weight of the mast
> >>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of these are fixed weights
> >>> (fixed
> >>> height above deck with the mast raised in sailing position) and can be
> >>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint of the mast (i.e.,
> >>> center of
> >>> gravity or CG).
> >>>
> >>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than conventional, because it is
> >>> smaller).
> >>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical roller, the CG of the sail
> >>> also stays
> >>> at the same height above the deck. The center of effort (CE) of the
> >>> furling
> >>> sail will move down and forward as the sail rolls into the mast.
> >>>
> >>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the center of effort and not the
> >>> center
> >>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination, while furling the
> >>> conventional
> >>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of the conventional mast/sail
> >>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the sail, which is not likely a
> >>> significant part of the whole.
> >>>
> >>> It seems then to come down to the additional weight of the IMF
> >>> assembly with
> >>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I don't know this, but I am
> >>> sure
> >>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the thicker mast extrusion
> >>> might be a
> >>> factor in some wind conditions.
> >>>
> >>> For me, convenience trumps all.
> >>>
> >>> Jim Connolly
> >>> s/v Inisheer
> >>> '85 recycled '03
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> >>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
> >>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> >>>
> >>> Wally,
> >>>
> >>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs. IMF sails is very hard to
> >>> do when
> >>> discussing among sailors some of whom have never even seen an IMF.
> >>>
> >>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes in sail size. The IMF is
> >>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my sail in increments of 5% of
> >>> total
> >>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change the size of their sails
> >>> instead
> >>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it as "reefing" -- it is an
> >>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in response to changing
> >>> conditions.
> >>>
> >>> The extra weight of the mast is insignificant. Remember that your
> >>> sail is
> >>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the smaller IMF sail. But,
> >>> since the
> >>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and can easily be trimmed to
> >>> sail
> >>> upright, the difference in performance due to weight is probably no
> >>> greater
> >>> in an IMF boat than the difference of carrying an extra bottle of
> >>> rum. Or
> >>> not.
> >>>
> >>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead of the main sail. Both are
> >>> infinitely adjustable while single handing. When conditions change,
> >>> I change
> >>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so easily that even a lazy
> >>> sailor will
> >>> do it.
> >>>
> >>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF is how well it works
> >>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for each other. There is no
> >>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend and retract the sail under
> >>> any
> >>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
> >>>
> >>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very narrow neck, rocks all
> >>> over the
> >>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6 hours. It is
> >>> irresponsible to
> >>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor, and most experienced
> >>> larger boat
> >>> sailors take their sails down just outside the neck, and motor to
their
> >>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't even stop while we retract
our
> >>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying to control flopping
> >>> sails inside
> >>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief. When other wives see my
> >>> wife
> >>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why they don't have sails
like
> >>> ours.
> >>>
> >>> Bill Effros
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Bill,
> >>>>
> >>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it would depend upon how much
> >>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight of mast. Way back when
> >>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion about this. In my
> >>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same you still might need to
> >>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on my part and I will admit
> >>>> I may be totally wrong.
> >>>>
> >>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite sensitive to subtle changes in
> >>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a price with IMF in mast
> >>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no cunnungham, no battens (except
> >>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use all these controls you can
> >>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be surprised at the
> >>>> difference adding a vang made even with IMF. I could still flatten
> >>>> the sail enough to make a big difference ...sailing much flatter,
> >>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
> >>>>
> >>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the pros for IMF are well
> >>>> worth any cons.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Wally
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
> >>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wally,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef sooner?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>
> >>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade offs with IMF. The sail is
> >>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22 would need to reef sooner
> >>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight aloft must have some
> >>>>>> effect on balance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wally
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima <josef508 at yahoo.com>
> >>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
> >>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800 (PST)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems, some with sail covers so
> >>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several replace the slot in the
> >>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid could hoist the main, and
> >>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe) is the unlimited reef
> >>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains protected in the mast during
> >>>>>>> transport.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that the IMF mast is thicker,
> >>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a little, but like Stan
> >>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited easy to set reef points,
> >>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the possibility you'd need to
> >>>>>>> bring down the main completely because you couldn't depower
enough.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy Jacks where one of the
> >>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the sail, and we had to lower
> >>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard a 65 foot Schooner with
> >>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble than if it was a Rhodes
> >>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the piston powered Hoyt Jib
> >>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice feature.
> >>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175 gennoa!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was impressed with the ease
> >>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the main. He was using a
> >>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation manual at
> >>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At West Marine, the small
> >>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy Jack on an R22 main sail?
> >>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement? Does it jam easily?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for it. I still haven't been
> >>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF mast & hardware on our
> >>>>>>>> R22.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack looked interesting.
> >>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
> >>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the cockpit, next to the pop-top,
> >>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line. Comments?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>
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