[Rhodes22-list] IMF

[Arthur H. Czerwonky]

Jb,
So when do you anticipate your first sail in the R22?  We supply all the words, the boat will supply the action.  Take your wife to Edenton for a weekend, or visit one of the fleet skippers, sail on the boat and you'll never have a doubt.  Dream up every possible objection, and I'll bet you will overcome them all.  We will welcome you into the fleet with a bottle of the best Rum.
Art

-----Original Message-----
>From: JbTek <j.bulfer at jbtek.com>
>Sent: Feb 18, 2007 11:48 AM
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>
>yes, I follow
>Jb
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>
>
>> Wally,
>>
>> There are a lot of newbies currently on the list trying to figure out
>> how to configure their boats. Most of them do not seem to possess your
>> level of sophistication. I know what you mean, but I don't think they
>> necessarily do.
>>
>> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I also sit on the lee side
>> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is because there is less
>> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I believe there is also a
>> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy upright r-22 so your top
>> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull speed is less when heeled.
>> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give me some good wind and I
>> can plane upright at more than the hull speed of the boat every time.
>>
>> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always have enough wind. Father's
>> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there you can't use your
>> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat speed--we must use a GPS. The
>> boat doesn't have enough power to go through the water at more than 6.25
>> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>> > Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My original post stated you
>> > may have to reef sooner with IMF than standard. I wasn't really
>> > commenting about reefing sail shape or configurations.
>> >
>> > One thing you need to consider is the cut of the sails unfurled and/or
>> > reefed. This is just important as the size. To my eye it looks like
>> > the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is higher than standard
>> > main and perhaps a little further aft. With standard main you can
>> > further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and cunningham controls.
>> >
>> > Also my boat likes a little heel and in light air I sit on lee side to
>> > create heel....and I go faster.
>> >
>> > Wally
>> >
>> >> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>> >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>> >> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
>> >>
>> >> Jim,
>> >>
>> >> I think you must add the optimal heeling angle to your equations.
>> >>
>> >> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle of heel, none of the
>> >> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel, whether a standard or an
>> >> IMF is deployed.
>> >>
>> >> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more sail than it needs that it
>> >> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of wind--the only significant
>> >> variable is the skill of the captain.
>> >>
>> >> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to bring the boat on plane. As
>> >> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you can make the boat
>> >> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone doing it while heeled over.
>> >>
>> >> Bill Effros
>> >>
>> >> Jim Connolly wrote:
>> >>> It seems to me that the difference between IMF and conventional from a
>> >>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and the weight of the mast
>> >>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of these are fixed weights
>> >>> (fixed
>> >>> height above deck with the mast raised in sailing position) and can be
>> >>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint of the mast (i.e.,
>> >>> center of
>> >>> gravity or CG).
>> >>>
>> >>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than conventional, because it is
>> >>> smaller).
>> >>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical roller, the CG of the sail
>> >>> also stays
>> >>> at the same height above the deck. The center of effort (CE) of the
>> >>> furling
>> >>> sail will move down and forward as the sail rolls into the mast.
>> >>>
>> >>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the center of effort and not the
>> >>> center
>> >>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination, while furling the
>> >>> conventional
>> >>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of the conventional mast/sail
>> >>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the sail, which is not likely a
>> >>> significant part of the whole.
>> >>>
>> >>> It seems then to come down to the additional weight of the IMF
>> >>> assembly with
>> >>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I don't know this, but I am
>> >>> sure
>> >>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the thicker mast extrusion
>> >>> might be a
>> >>> factor in some wind conditions.
>> >>>
>> >>> For me, convenience trumps all.
>> >>>
>> >>> Jim Connolly
>> >>> s/v Inisheer
>> >>> '85 recycled '03
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> >>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
>> >>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
>> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> >>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>> >>>
>> >>> Wally,
>> >>>
>> >>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs. IMF sails is very hard to
>> >>> do when
>> >>> discussing among sailors some of whom have never even seen an IMF.
>> >>>
>> >>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes in sail size. The IMF is
>> >>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my sail in increments of 5% of
>> >>> total
>> >>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change the size of their sails
>> >>> instead
>> >>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it as "reefing" -- it is an
>> >>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in response to changing
>> >>> conditions.
>> >>>
>> >>> The extra weight of the mast is insignificant. Remember that your
>> >>> sail is
>> >>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the smaller IMF sail. But,
>> >>> since the
>> >>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and can easily be trimmed to
>> >>> sail
>> >>> upright, the difference in performance due to weight is probably no
>> >>> greater
>> >>> in an IMF boat than the difference of carrying an extra bottle of
>> >>> rum. Or
>> >>> not.
>> >>>
>> >>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead of the main sail. Both are
>> >>> infinitely adjustable while single handing. When conditions change,
>> >>> I change
>> >>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so easily that even a lazy
>> >>> sailor will
>> >>> do it.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF is how well it works
>> >>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for each other. There is no
>> >>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend and retract the sail under
>> >>> any
>> >>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very narrow neck, rocks all
>> >>> over the
>> >>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6 hours. It is
>> >>> irresponsible to
>> >>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor, and most experienced
>> >>> larger boat
>> >>> sailors take their sails down just outside the neck, and motor to
>their
>> >>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't even stop while we retract
>our
>> >>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying to control flopping
>> >>> sails inside
>> >>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief. When other wives see my
>> >>> wife
>> >>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why they don't have sails
>like
>> >>> ours.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bill Effros
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Bill,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it would depend upon how much
>> >>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight of mast. Way back when
>> >>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion about this. In my
>> >>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same you still might need to
>> >>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on my part and I will admit
>> >>>> I may be totally wrong.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite sensitive to subtle changes in
>> >>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a price with IMF in mast
>> >>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no cunnungham, no battens (except
>> >>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use all these controls you can
>> >>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be surprised at the
>> >>>> difference adding a vang made even with IMF. I could still flatten
>> >>>> the sail enough to make a big difference ...sailing much flatter,
>> >>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the pros for IMF are well
>> >>>> worth any cons.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Wally
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>> >>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>> >>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Wally,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef sooner?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Bill Effros
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade offs with IMF. The sail is
>> >>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22 would need to reef sooner
>> >>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight aloft must have some
>> >>>>>> effect on balance.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Wally
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima <josef508 at yahoo.com>
>> >>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>> >>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800 (PST)
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems, some with sail covers so
>> >>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several replace the slot in the
>> >>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid could hoist the main, and
>> >>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe) is the unlimited reef
>> >>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains protected in the mast during
>> >>>>>>> transport.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that the IMF mast is thicker,
>> >>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a little, but like Stan
>> >>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited easy to set reef points,
>> >>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the possibility you'd need to
>> >>>>>>> bring down the main completely because you couldn't depower
>enough.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy Jacks where one of the
>> >>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the sail, and we had to lower
>> >>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard a 65 foot Schooner with
>> >>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble than if it was a Rhodes
>> >>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the piston powered Hoyt Jib
>> >>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice feature.
>> >>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175 gennoa!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was impressed with the ease
>> >>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the main. He was using a
>> >>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation manual at
>> >>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At West Marine, the small
>> >>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy Jack on an R22 main sail?
>> >>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement? Does it jam easily?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for it. I still haven't been
>> >>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF mast & hardware on our
>> >>>>>>>> R22.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack looked interesting.
>> >>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
>> >>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the cockpit, next to the pop-top,
>> >>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line. Comments?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Mike
>> >>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>> >>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the
>> >>>>>> best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________
>> >>>> The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by
>> >>>> Experian.
>> >>>>
>http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOO
>> >>>> TERAVERAGE
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
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>> >
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