[Rhodes22-list] etiquett

Sun Feb 18 12:54:14 EST 2007

Jb,
I have seen Ed use IMHO, yet Ed has no humble opinions.
Art

-----Original Message-----
>From: JbTek <j.bulfer at jbtek.com>
>Sent: Feb 18, 2007 12:49 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] etiquett
>
>Bill Effros,
>I am also new to this type of conversation so thanks for any pointers.
>I've been trying to fiqure out what BTW is.
>
>    Jb
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:40 AM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>
>
>> Sorry, Jb,
>>
>> We try to call people by the names they sign unless we are taunting
>> them.  I would call you Jb.
>>
>> The Jay I mentioned was Jay on Long Beach Island, NJ with whom I try to
>> spend an hour on the water on Father's Day every year.
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>> (See how easy it is to get off sailing topics on this list...)
>>
>> PS -- In terms of computer etiquette I have not changed the subject line
>> on this post because I expect it to die quickly, and digest people might
>> want to follow.  It's a judgment call, but as a newbie you might wonder
>> why everyone just doesn't change the subject line every time they
>> realize they have switched subjects.
>>
>> PPS -- I always sign my full name because there are enough Bills in the
>> world so that at any given time there is likely to be more than one on
>> the list.  Rummy doesn't have to do that, although many people never
>> figure out his given name.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> JbTek wrote:
>> > yes, I follow
>> > Jb
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Wally,
>> >>
>> >> There are a lot of newbies currently on the list trying to figure out
>> >> how to configure their boats. Most of them do not seem to possess your
>> >> level of sophistication. I know what you mean, but I don't think they
>> >> necessarily do.
>> >>
>> >> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I also sit on the lee side
>> >> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is because there is less
>> >> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I believe there is also a
>> >> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy upright r-22 so your top
>> >> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull speed is less when
>heeled.
>> >> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give me some good wind and I
>> >> can plane upright at more than the hull speed of the boat every time.
>> >>
>> >> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always have enough wind. Father's
>> >> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there you can't use your
>> >> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat speed--we must use a GPS.
>The
>> >> boat doesn't have enough power to go through the water at more than
>6.25
>> >> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
>> >>
>> >> Bill Effros
>> >>
>> >> TN Rhodey wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My original post stated you
>> >>> may have to reef sooner with IMF than standard. I wasn't really
>> >>> commenting about reefing sail shape or configurations.
>> >>>
>> >>> One thing you need to consider is the cut of the sails unfurled and/or
>> >>> reefed. This is just important as the size. To my eye it looks like
>> >>> the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is higher than standard
>> >>> main and perhaps a little further aft. With standard main you can
>> >>> further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and cunningham controls.
>> >>>
>> >>> Also my boat likes a little heel and in light air I sit on lee side to
>> >>> create heel....and I go faster.
>> >>>
>> >>> Wally
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>> >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>> >>>> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Jim,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I think you must add the optimal heeling angle to your equations.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle of heel, none of the
>> >>>> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel, whether a standard or an
>> >>>> IMF is deployed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more sail than it needs that it
>> >>>> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of wind--the only significant
>> >>>> variable is the skill of the captain.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to bring the boat on plane. As
>> >>>> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you can make the boat
>> >>>> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone doing it while heeled
>over.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bill Effros
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Jim Connolly wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> It seems to me that the difference between IMF and conventional from
>a
>> >>>>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and the weight of the mast
>> >>>>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of these are fixed weights
>> >>>>> (fixed
>> >>>>> height above deck with the mast raised in sailing position) and can
>be
>> >>>>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint of the mast (i.e.,
>> >>>>> center of
>> >>>>> gravity or CG).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than conventional, because it is
>> >>>>> smaller).
>> >>>>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical roller, the CG of the sail
>> >>>>> also stays
>> >>>>> at the same height above the deck. The center of effort (CE) of the
>> >>>>> furling
>> >>>>> sail will move down and forward as the sail rolls into the mast.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the center of effort and not the
>> >>>>> center
>> >>>>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination, while furling the
>> >>>>> conventional
>> >>>>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of the conventional mast/sail
>> >>>>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the sail, which is not likely a
>> >>>>> significant part of the whole.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It seems then to come down to the additional weight of the IMF
>> >>>>> assembly with
>> >>>>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I don't know this, but I am
>> >>>>> sure
>> >>>>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the thicker mast extrusion
>> >>>>> might be a
>> >>>>> factor in some wind conditions.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> For me, convenience trumps all.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Jim Connolly
>> >>>>> s/v Inisheer
>> >>>>> '85 recycled '03
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> >>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
>> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
>> >>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> >>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Wally,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs. IMF sails is very hard to
>> >>>>> do when
>> >>>>> discussing among sailors some of whom have never even seen an IMF.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes in sail size. The IMF is
>> >>>>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my sail in increments of 5% of
>> >>>>> total
>> >>>>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change the size of their sails
>> >>>>> instead
>> >>>>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it as "reefing" -- it is an
>> >>>>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in response to changing
>> >>>>> conditions.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The extra weight of the mast is insignificant. Remember that your
>> >>>>> sail is
>> >>>>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the smaller IMF sail. But,
>> >>>>> since the
>> >>>>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and can easily be trimmed to
>> >>>>> sail
>> >>>>> upright, the difference in performance due to weight is probably no
>> >>>>> greater
>> >>>>> in an IMF boat than the difference of carrying an extra bottle of
>> >>>>> rum. Or
>> >>>>> not.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead of the main sail. Both
>are
>> >>>>> infinitely adjustable while single handing. When conditions change,
>> >>>>> I change
>> >>>>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so easily that even a lazy
>> >>>>> sailor will
>> >>>>> do it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF is how well it works
>> >>>>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for each other. There is no
>> >>>>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend and retract the sail under
>> >>>>> any
>> >>>>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very narrow neck, rocks all
>> >>>>> over the
>> >>>>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6 hours. It is
>> >>>>> irresponsible to
>> >>>>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor, and most experienced
>> >>>>> larger boat
>> >>>>> sailors take their sails down just outside the neck, and motor to
>> >>>>>
>> > their
>> >
>> >>>>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't even stop while we retract
>> >>>>>
>> > our
>> >
>> >>>>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying to control flopping
>> >>>>> sails inside
>> >>>>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief. When other wives see my
>> >>>>> wife
>> >>>>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why they don't have sails
>> >>>>>
>> > like
>> >
>> >>>>> ours.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Bill Effros
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Bill,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it would depend upon how much
>> >>>>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight of mast. Way back when
>> >>>>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion about this. In my
>> >>>>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same you still might need to
>> >>>>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on my part and I will admit
>> >>>>>> I may be totally wrong.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite sensitive to subtle changes in
>> >>>>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a price with IMF in mast
>> >>>>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no cunnungham, no battens (except
>> >>>>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use all these controls you can
>> >>>>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be surprised at the
>> >>>>>> difference adding a vang made even with IMF. I could still flatten
>> >>>>>> the sail enough to make a big difference ...sailing much flatter,
>> >>>>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the pros for IMF are well
>> >>>>>> worth any cons.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Wally
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>> >>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>> >>>>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Wally,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef sooner?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Bill Effros
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade offs with IMF. The sail is
>> >>>>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22 would need to reef sooner
>> >>>>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight aloft must have some
>> >>>>>>>> effect on balance.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Wally
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima <josef508 at yahoo.com>
>> >>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>> >>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800 (PST)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems, some with sail covers so
>> >>>>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several replace the slot in the
>> >>>>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid could hoist the main, and
>> >>>>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe) is the unlimited reef
>> >>>>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains protected in the mast during
>> >>>>>>>>> transport.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that the IMF mast is thicker,
>> >>>>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a little, but like Stan
>> >>>>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited easy to set reef points,
>> >>>>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the possibility you'd need to
>> >>>>>>>>> bring down the main completely because you couldn't depower
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> > enough.
>> >
>> >>>>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy Jacks where one of the
>> >>>>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the sail, and we had to lower
>> >>>>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard a 65 foot Schooner with
>> >>>>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble than if it was a Rhodes
>> >>>>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the piston powered Hoyt Jib
>> >>>>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice feature.
>> >>>>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175 gennoa!
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was impressed with the ease
>> >>>>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the main. He was using a
>> >>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation manual at
>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At West Marine, the small
>> >>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy Jack on an R22 main sail?
>> >>>>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement? Does it jam easily?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for it. I still haven't been
>> >>>>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF mast & hardware on our
>> >>>>>>>>>> R22.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack looked interesting.
>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
>> >>>>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the cockpit, next to the pop-top,
>> >>>>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line. Comments?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Mike
>> >>>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>> >>>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the
>> >>>>>>>> best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>> >>>>>> The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by
>> >>>>>> Experian.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> > http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOO
>> >
>> >>>>>> TERAVERAGE
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>
>> >>> _________________________________________________________________
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>> >
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >
>> >
>> __________________________________________________
>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>__________________________________________________
>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list