[Rhodes22-list] etiquett
Bill Effros
bill at effros.com
Sun Feb 18 14:45:54 EST 2007
By The Way,
As soon as I can find it, one of our members posted all sorts of
abbreviations, no they are not acronyms if you are a purist. Either
I'll post it or someone else will tell you where you can find it.
We make up the rules as we go along, but we've been at it for a while,
and the guy who set up the list (Michael Meltzer) was way ahead of the
rest of us before we got there.
Look at the "Charter" -- it contains some more pointers on this topic.
Somebody will hop on and tell you where you can find the charter.
Welcome to the list. Feel free to bring up both on-topic and off-topic
questions. We're all just hanging out together, as you can see.
Bill Effros
PPPPS -- I see what happened here, and if it's a joke it's fine and
funny, but most on the list call me just plain "Bill", although some use
more colorful names.
JbTek wrote:
> Bill Effros,
> I am also new to this type of conversation so thanks for any pointers.
> I've been trying to fiqure out what BTW is.
>
> Jb
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>
>
>
>> Sorry, Jb,
>>
>> We try to call people by the names they sign unless we are taunting
>> them. I would call you Jb.
>>
>> The Jay I mentioned was Jay on Long Beach Island, NJ with whom I try to
>> spend an hour on the water on Father's Day every year.
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>> (See how easy it is to get off sailing topics on this list...)
>>
>> PS -- In terms of computer etiquette I have not changed the subject line
>> on this post because I expect it to die quickly, and digest people might
>> want to follow. It's a judgment call, but as a newbie you might wonder
>> why everyone just doesn't change the subject line every time they
>> realize they have switched subjects.
>>
>> PPS -- I always sign my full name because there are enough Bills in the
>> world so that at any given time there is likely to be more than one on
>> the list. Rummy doesn't have to do that, although many people never
>> figure out his given name.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> JbTek wrote:
>>
>>> yes, I follow
>>> Jb
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Wally,
>>>>
>>>> There are a lot of newbies currently on the list trying to figure out
>>>> how to configure their boats. Most of them do not seem to possess your
>>>> level of sophistication. I know what you mean, but I don't think they
>>>> necessarily do.
>>>>
>>>> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I also sit on the lee side
>>>> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is because there is less
>>>> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I believe there is also a
>>>> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy upright r-22 so your top
>>>> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull speed is less when
>>>>
> heeled.
>
>>>> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give me some good wind and I
>>>> can plane upright at more than the hull speed of the boat every time.
>>>>
>>>> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always have enough wind. Father's
>>>> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there you can't use your
>>>> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat speed--we must use a GPS.
>>>>
> The
>
>>>> boat doesn't have enough power to go through the water at more than
>>>>
> 6.25
>
>>>> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>
>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My original post stated you
>>>>> may have to reef sooner with IMF than standard. I wasn't really
>>>>> commenting about reefing sail shape or configurations.
>>>>>
>>>>> One thing you need to consider is the cut of the sails unfurled and/or
>>>>> reefed. This is just important as the size. To my eye it looks like
>>>>> the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is higher than standard
>>>>> main and perhaps a little further aft. With standard main you can
>>>>> further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and cunningham controls.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also my boat likes a little heel and in light air I sit on lee side to
>>>>> create heel....and I go faster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wally
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you must add the optimal heeling angle to your equations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle of heel, none of the
>>>>>> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel, whether a standard or an
>>>>>> IMF is deployed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more sail than it needs that it
>>>>>> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of wind--the only significant
>>>>>> variable is the skill of the captain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to bring the boat on plane. As
>>>>>> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you can make the boat
>>>>>> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone doing it while heeled
>>>>>>
> over.
>
>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim Connolly wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems to me that the difference between IMF and conventional from
>>>>>>>
> a
>
>>>>>>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and the weight of the mast
>>>>>>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of these are fixed weights
>>>>>>> (fixed
>>>>>>> height above deck with the mast raised in sailing position) and can
>>>>>>>
> be
>
>>>>>>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint of the mast (i.e.,
>>>>>>> center of
>>>>>>> gravity or CG).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than conventional, because it is
>>>>>>> smaller).
>>>>>>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical roller, the CG of the sail
>>>>>>> also stays
>>>>>>> at the same height above the deck. The center of effort (CE) of the
>>>>>>> furling
>>>>>>> sail will move down and forward as the sail rolls into the mast.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the center of effort and not the
>>>>>>> center
>>>>>>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination, while furling the
>>>>>>> conventional
>>>>>>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of the conventional mast/sail
>>>>>>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the sail, which is not likely a
>>>>>>> significant part of the whole.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems then to come down to the additional weight of the IMF
>>>>>>> assembly with
>>>>>>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I don't know this, but I am
>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the thicker mast extrusion
>>>>>>> might be a
>>>>>>> factor in some wind conditions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For me, convenience trumps all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim Connolly
>>>>>>> s/v Inisheer
>>>>>>> '85 recycled '03
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wally,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs. IMF sails is very hard to
>>>>>>> do when
>>>>>>> discussing among sailors some of whom have never even seen an IMF.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes in sail size. The IMF is
>>>>>>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my sail in increments of 5% of
>>>>>>> total
>>>>>>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change the size of their sails
>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it as "reefing" -- it is an
>>>>>>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in response to changing
>>>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The extra weight of the mast is insignificant. Remember that your
>>>>>>> sail is
>>>>>>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the smaller IMF sail. But,
>>>>>>> since the
>>>>>>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and can easily be trimmed to
>>>>>>> sail
>>>>>>> upright, the difference in performance due to weight is probably no
>>>>>>> greater
>>>>>>> in an IMF boat than the difference of carrying an extra bottle of
>>>>>>> rum. Or
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead of the main sail. Both
>>>>>>>
> are
>
>>>>>>> infinitely adjustable while single handing. When conditions change,
>>>>>>> I change
>>>>>>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so easily that even a lazy
>>>>>>> sailor will
>>>>>>> do it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF is how well it works
>>>>>>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for each other. There is no
>>>>>>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend and retract the sail under
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very narrow neck, rocks all
>>>>>>> over the
>>>>>>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6 hours. It is
>>>>>>> irresponsible to
>>>>>>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor, and most experienced
>>>>>>> larger boat
>>>>>>> sailors take their sails down just outside the neck, and motor to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> their
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't even stop while we retract
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> our
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying to control flopping
>>>>>>> sails inside
>>>>>>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief. When other wives see my
>>>>>>> wife
>>>>>>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why they don't have sails
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> like
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> ours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it would depend upon how much
>>>>>>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight of mast. Way back when
>>>>>>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion about this. In my
>>>>>>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same you still might need to
>>>>>>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on my part and I will admit
>>>>>>>> I may be totally wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite sensitive to subtle changes in
>>>>>>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a price with IMF in mast
>>>>>>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no cunnungham, no battens (except
>>>>>>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use all these controls you can
>>>>>>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be surprised at the
>>>>>>>> difference adding a vang made even with IMF. I could still flatten
>>>>>>>> the sail enough to make a big difference ...sailing much flatter,
>>>>>>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the pros for IMF are well
>>>>>>>> worth any cons.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wally
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wally,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef sooner?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade offs with IMF. The sail is
>>>>>>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22 would need to reef sooner
>>>>>>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight aloft must have some
>>>>>>>>>> effect on balance.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wally
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima <josef508 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800 (PST)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems, some with sail covers so
>>>>>>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several replace the slot in the
>>>>>>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid could hoist the main, and
>>>>>>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe) is the unlimited reef
>>>>>>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains protected in the mast during
>>>>>>>>>>> transport.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that the IMF mast is thicker,
>>>>>>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a little, but like Stan
>>>>>>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited easy to set reef points,
>>>>>>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the possibility you'd need to
>>>>>>>>>>> bring down the main completely because you couldn't depower
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> enough.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy Jacks where one of the
>>>>>>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the sail, and we had to lower
>>>>>>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard a 65 foot Schooner with
>>>>>>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble than if it was a Rhodes
>>>>>>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the piston powered Hoyt Jib
>>>>>>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice feature.
>>>>>>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175 gennoa!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was impressed with the ease
>>>>>>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the main. He was using a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation manual at
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At West Marine, the small
>>>>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy Jack on an R22 main sail?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement? Does it jam easily?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for it. I still haven't been
>>>>>>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF mast & hardware on our
>>>>>>>>>>>> R22.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack looked interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
>>>>>>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the cockpit, next to the pop-top,
>>>>>>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line. Comments?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the
>>>>>>>>>> best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by
>>>>>>>> Experian.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOO
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> TERAVERAGE
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Find what you need at prices you’ll love. Compare products and save at
>>>>> MSN® Shopping.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
> http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701
>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
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