[Rhodes22-list] Reply to Wally about Iraq Information(political)

Wed Jul 11 17:52:34 EDT 2007

Rob,

Thank you for providing a convenient point in the thread to post a speech.
As I said earlier in the day, I don't like McCain, but that doesn't mean he
doesn't make sense every now and then.  We can't win in Iraq?  Not with our
current attitude!  The enemy counted on that fact from the beginning.  They
studied our history, our press, our mindset, our political system.  They are
correct!  We can't win with our current attitude and fortitude, and that
won't change until we are forced to do so.  We will be forced to do so.
Here is an excerpt of what Sen. McCain had to say.

Brad

----------------------------

Let us keep in the front of our minds the likely consequences of premature
withdrawal from Iraq. Many of my colleagues would like to believe that,
should any of the various amendments forcing a withdrawal become law, it
would mark the end of this long effort. They are wrong. Should the Congress
force a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq, it would mark a new beginning, the
start of a new, more dangerous, and more arduous effort to contain the
forces unleashed by our disengagement.

No matter where my colleagues came down in 2003 about the centrality of Iraq
to the war on terror, there can simply be no debate that our efforts in Iraq
today are critical to the wider struggle against violent Islamic extremism.
Already, the terrorists are emboldened, excited that America is talking not
about winning in Iraq, but is rather debating when we should lose. Last
week, Ayman al-Zawahiri, al-Qaeda's deputy chief, said that the United
States is merely delaying our "inevitable" defeat in Iraq, and that 'the
Mujahideen of Islam in Iraq of the caliphate and jihad are advancing with
steady steps towards victory.'

If we leave Iraq prematurely, jihadists around the world will interpret the
withdrawal as their great victory against our great power. Their movement
thrives in an atmosphere of perceived victory; we saw this in the surge of
men and money flowing to al Qaeda following the Soviet withdrawal from
Afghanistan. If they defeat the United States in Iraq, they will believe
that anything is possible, that history is on their side, that they really
can bring their terrible rule to lands the world over. Recall the plan laid
out in a letter from Zawahiri to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, before his death.
That plan is to take shape in four stages: establish a caliphate in Iraq,
extend the "jihad wave" to the secular countries neighboring Iraq, clash
with Israel — none of which shall commence until the completion of stage
one: expel the Americans from Iraq. Mr. President, the terrorists are in
this war to win it. The question is: Are we?

***

As my friend Brent Scowcroft has said recently, "The costs of staying are
visible; the costs of getting out are almost never discussed. . . If we get
out before Iraq is stable, the entire Middle East region might start to
resemble Iraq today. Getting out is not a solution." Natan Sharansky has
recently written, "A precipitous withdrawal of U.S. forces could lead to a
bloodbath that would make the current carnage pale by comparison." Should we
leave Iraq before there is a basic level of stability, we will invite
further Iranian influence at a time when Iranian operatives are already
moving weapons, training fighters, providing resources, and helping plan
operations to kill American soldiers and damage our efforts to bring
stability to Iraq. Iran will comfortably step into the power vacuum left by
a U.S. withdrawal, and such an aggrandizement of fundamentalist power has
great potential to spark greater Sunni-Shia conflict across the region.

Leaving prematurely would induce Iraq's neighbors, including Saudi Arabia
and Jordan, Egypt to Israel, Turkey and others, to feel their own security
eroding, and may well induce them to act in ways that prompt wider
instability. The potential for genocide, wider war, spiraling oil prices,
and the perception of strategic American defeat is real, Mr. President, and
no vote on this floor will change that. This fight is about Iraq but not
about Iraq alone. It is greater than that and more important still, about
whether America still has the political courage to fight for victory or
whether we will settle for defeat, with all of the terrible things that
accompany it. We cannot walk away gracefully from defeat in this war.

On 7/11/07, Rob Lowe <rlowe at vt.edu> wrote:
>
> Hmm, let's see.  In the place of genocide, mass murder, and torture we now
> have, well, secretarian violence, mass murder, torture, beheadings,
> bombings, IED's, billions of dollars wasted, the loss of American
> prestige,
> thousands of American soldiers killed, tens of thousands wounded, tens of
> thousands of Iraqi citizens have flown the country, Iran flexing it's
> muscle, a fractured country, infrastructure destroyed, more bombings, and
> so
> on.  No plan to succeed or undo the damage and no way out.  Frankly, I'm
> be
> happy with the genocide, mass murder, and torture as they were limited to
> Iraq and didn't effect us.  There are many countries in the world with
> atrocities happening that we clearly avoid.  Sudan being the obvious
> example.  I'm in agreement with Rummy.  We should have never gotten into
> Iraq.  Those opposed to the war can say I told you so.  But that's such a
> hollow victory.  But the claim that we can't leave now because it will
> just
> be worse is just as naive.  We can't win Iraq.  The wafflling of the Bush
> administration in no longer amusing and never has been.  People are dying
> because of him.  The latest claim that the war decisions should be
> determined by the generals directly ignores that the generals in charge of
> planning the war requested 500,000 troops.  They were dismissed by the
> politicians.  Now we have a surge that adds just a fraction of the troops
> that were originally needed.  And we still don't have a plan for winning
> the
> war.  A "we can't leave now because it will just get worse" is not a plan.
> The best plan was not to invade in the first place.  But when you elect a
> frat boy cowboy for a president this is what you get.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Herb Parsons" <HParsons at parsonsys.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Reply to Wally about Iraq
> Information(political)
>
>
> > Does this mean that you are of the opinion that the genocide, mass
> murder,
> and torture was better for the Iraqi's than what we have now?
> >
> >
> > Herb Parsons
> >
> > S/V O'Jure
> >   1976 O'Day 25
> >   Lake Grapevine, N TX
> >
> > S/V Reve de Papa
> >   1971 Coronado 35
> >   Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
> >
> > >>> Ronald Lipton <rlipton at earthlink.net> 7/11/2007 3:00 PM >>>
> > Herb said:
> >
> > "Rummy, just because one doesn't agree with the ridiculous notion that
> > genocide, mass murder, and torture was better for Iraq than what they've
> got
> > now..."
> >
> > Brad himself tells us what we have now.  You can judge, but any
> arguement
> > that the Iraq
> > adventure was anything but a political, economic and scocial disaster
> for
> > both nations
> > seems to be pretty hard to make.
> >
> > My own opinion is that the root cause is arrogance and willful ignorance
> on
> > the part of
> > our leaders. I don't see that changing for a while.
> >
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Reply to Wally about Iraq
> > Information(political)
> >
> >
> > > Rummy,
> > >
> > > The MSM is a dinosaur.  They no longer have a monopoly.  The problem
> with
> > > blogsphere is that anyone can post.  But the beauty of blogsphere is
> that
> > > there are millions of fact checkers.  What did you read recently?  AP:
> 40
> > > headless bodies found in Iraq!  Fact: Untrue!  AP and all the other
> > > newspapers that use them retracted the story on page 37.  A hundred
> > > mutilitated and buried bodies, killed by AQI were found, photographed,
> > > videoed, and reported by Micheal Yon.  MSM coverage?  Zero.  If anyone
> > > needs
> > > to overcome their anal/cerebral inversion it is you Rummy.  We may
> > > disagree
> > > about how to interpret the news, but surely you can't be serious that
> only
> > > the AP, Reuters, and the NYT publishes the truth.
> > >
> > > Brad
> > >
> > > On 7/11/07, R22RumRunner at aol.com <R22RumRunner at aol.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Ed,
> > >> Get your heard out of your ass and smell the fresh air. What the
> media
> > >> is
> > >> reporting IS happening. You must be in the 20% minority that thinks
> your
> > >> president has done an outstanding job.
> > >>
> > >> Rummy
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ************************************** See what's free at
> > >> http://www.aol.com.
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