[Rhodes22-list] Question for Brad about Iraq Information (political)

Thu Jul 12 12:12:36 EDT 2007

Herb, Wow I dI didn't put words in your mouth. I am sorry you see it that
way. Note the lack of quotation marks in my response. I was not quoting you
but rather trying to summarize your remarks.. I really don't understand the
difference in semantics you refer to but again I used no quotes. I guess it
is hard to relate using only email. Your response is a perfect example.

You were/are stuck on your question to Rummy. I guess you were not wanting
to  move on.   I am not sure you noticed but I agreed to your original
question......yes some good had been accomplished. I guess you didn't like
the fact that i asked a different question....tough shit.

 I understand that we will be measuring results from this for years to come.
You have a knack for stating the obvious. Truth be told you don't know how
this will turn out and nether do I. History and our track record in the area
does provide some insight though.

I suggest if you Post to Rummy and you want to limit response to a single
specific question.... say so in post or send off list. This list has always
been free form flow and despite your attitude I don't expect it will change.

Guys I am off to the lake! ....I will make a promise to the list......this
is my last political post on this forum. Say what you want but I am done. I
will most likely still hang on list for Rhodes related stuff...or not. I
have some stuff going on (business and family) that is taking up way too
much time.

Wally

On 7/12/07, Herb Parsons <HParsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
>
> Wally,
>
> I'm not sure if you misread the things I write, or you simply choose to
> rephrase them so they appear to say something different.
>
> First of all, I didn't say it's "not about the Kurds, Sunnis, or Shites",
> I said "it's not about the kurds, or the Sunni's". I know that sounds like
> I'm picking at semantics, but I'm not. The way I phrased it means something
> totally different than the way you phrased it. My meaning was that it's not
> about individual groups, but about ALL of the groups.
>
> The war in Iraq is not over yet. Were we, as a nation, better off in 1944
> than we were in 1941? I doubt it. Were we as a nation, better off in 1864
> than we were in 1860? I doubt it. War is not to achieve immediate
> betterment. It's almost always about stopping something that is going to do
> long term harm.
>
> In that, we AND Iraq are better off than we were before Saddam was taken
> out.
>
> As for the cost, war always costs. Again, in WWII we lost almost half a
> million of our military. That was costly. I could make the argument that it
> was hardly "worth" sacrificing 400,000 lives in response to 2300 killed. But
> that's not the how the "worth" of going to war is counted.
>
> Now please, stop being an ass and putting words in my mouth. I never said
> I "don't want to consider if the
> war is worth the cost", I said that that was not the question that was
> before us. The very next statement in my comment was "I was "I was
> specifically addressing Rummy's ridiculous assertion that "nothing's been
> accomplished". So, either your reading comprehension skills are somewhat
> lacking, or you were simply choosing to put words in my mouth.
>
> I'll repeat for you, my argument was with Rummy's ridiculous notion that
> nothing's been accomplished. The question of whether or not it was worth it
> is an entirely different debate.
>
>
> Herb Parsons
>
> S/V O'Jure
>   1976 O'Day 25
>   Lake Grapevine, N TX
>
> S/V Reve de Papa
>   1971 Coronado 35
>   Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>
> >>> "TN Rhodey" <tnrhodey at gmail.com> 7/12/2007 7:50 AM >>>
> Herb, I do see your point and I do agree that we have done some good. I
> asked some additional questions because I think it is important to
> consider
> the costs and the long term consequences. If i had to limit my response to
> "is Iraq better off today"......I would say they are slightly better off
> in
> that less people are being killed.
>
> You say the question is not about the Kurds, Sunnis, or shites,  it is
> about
> the people.These are the people so of course it is about them! It is their
> very differences that make this complicated. This is not like the
> homogeneous societies in Japan or Germany. They were pretty much united in
> war and in defeat. For the most part the people looked alike and had the
> same beliefs. This is not the case in Iraq. So yes this is more
> complicated
> than your average war.
>
> I guess my point was I am more concerned with what is good for the US and
> what is the best way to fight terror. So you don't want to consider if the
> war is worth the cost....well of course that is your choice. I like to
> look
> at the whole equation before coming up with an answer. To not do so seems
> to
> limit objective thinking.
>
> Wally
>
>
>
>
> On 7/11/07, Herb Parsons <HParsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
> >
> > The question is no more complicated than any other question (and
> answers)
> > about war.
> >
> > Was the United States "better off" after the Civil War? If you were a
> > plantation owner in the south, no. If you were a slave in the south,
> > probably.
> >
> > But, "was the plantation owner better off", or "was the slave better
> off"
> > or any other similarities was NOT the question. The question was "was
> the
> > United States better off".
> >
> > By the same token, the question about Iraq is NOT about the kurds, or
> the
> > Sunni's, it's about the PEOPLE OF IRAQ, and no, it's not a complicated
> > answer. Bet I know what most of them would say if you were to pose it to
> > them...
> >
> > And, the question is NOT whether or not it was "worth it". I was
> > specifically addressing Rummy's ridiculous assertion that "nothing's
> been
> > accomplished". He didn't say that the accomplishments were at too great
> a
> > cost, he said there were none.
> >
> > It's simply not true. Either he's delusional or not telling the truth,
> but
> > facts are facts, there WERE positive things accomplished.
> >
> > Herb Parsons
> >
> > S/V O'Jure
> >   1976 O'Day 25
> >   Lake Grapevine, N TX
> >
> > S/V Reve de Papa
> >   1971 Coronado 35
> >   Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
> >
> > >>> "TN Rhodey" <tnrhodey at gmail.com> 7/11/2007 11:56 AM >>>
> > Herb,
> >
> > You ask a fair question and it is a complicated answer. I would say the
> > Kurds are better off (for now) and  the rest of the country is a mixed
> > bag.
> > If we were both to agree Iraq was better of today you would then need to
> > consider was the gain worth the cost. And if they are better off today
> > what
> > will happen when we leave? Will they still be better of....who knows.
> >
> > I guess I am selfish....to me the question is are we better off. The
> > answer
> > to that is just as complicated but I would say we are not. A quick check
> > of
> > the headlines paints a pretty grim picture in the Middle East. Every
> > terrorist group out there seems as strong as ever and the Taliban is
> > making
> > a come back. We have spent billions on a plan that doesn't provide any
> > protection for our citizens with no end in sight.. Even though Saddam
> was
> > a
> > tyrant he did help keep Iran in check. Now Iran and Iraq seem to be
> > unified
> > in hating us. I don't see the up-side to this whole thing.
> >
> > I wish I didn't know anything about the history of the area and the
> > culture.
> > I would at least think we had a chance.
> >
> > Wally
> > On 7/11/07, Herb Parsons <HParsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Rummy,
> > >
> > > You don't get to speak to what I believe. I never said that (though I
> > > may).
> > >
> > > I merely pointed out that you said "nothing has been accomplished".
> You
> > > were wrong.
> > >
> > > You may not LIKE what's been accomplished, but the fact remains that
> > > things have been accomplished.
> > >
> > > I think it's the height of irony (and hypocrisy) when the left decries
> > our
> > > actions in places like Gitmo, then make statements lauding the
> > > "stabilization" that Saddam brought about through mass murder,
> genocide,
> > and
> > > torture.
> > >
> > > So, just to be sure that I don't commit the same wrong as you, that of
> > > putting words into your mouth, I want to be sure I understand you.
> > >
> > > Is it your position is that Iraq was better off under the rule of
> Saddam
> > > than it is now?
> > >
> > > Herb Parsons
> > >
> > > S/V O'Jure
> > >   1976 O'Day 25
> > >   Lake Grapevine, N TX
> > >
> > > S/V Reve de Papa
> > >   1971 Coronado 35
> > >   Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
> > >
> > > >>> <R22RumRunner at aol.com> 7/11/2007 6:25 AM >>>
> > > Herb,
> > > Since you still believe that going into Iraq and getting rid of Saddam
> > was
> > > all worth it, what good has come of it. We have destabilized a country
> > > that was
> > > held together by a thread in the first place and opened up an entire
> > > country
> > > for  Al Qaeda to come in and get control over.
> > > If you want to talk about the great schools that have been built but
> are
> > > unfinished because contractors can't find anyone to work. Or perhaps
> the
> > > great
> > > restoration of basic services like water and sewer and electricity
> that
> > > are
> > > barely existent for a few hours each day.
> > > Then there's the little thing about the remainder of the globe that
> > hates
> > > our guts. Yep, all in all I'd say we did one hell of a job.
> > >
> > > Rummy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ************************************** See what's free at
> > > http://www.aol.com.
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