[Rhodes22-list] Iraq-my continuing rant!

[kuzzal at comcast.net]

Fat lot of good that did Napoleon at Waterloo!
:)
Maggie K

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "David Culp" <daculp at gmail.com> 

> Wally: 
> 
> You're right-we were dragged kicking and screaming into WW2. but I think it 
> speaks well of our people that we are generally not war-mongers and tend 
> toward isolationism, especially in that time period. I don't think the 
> "greatest generation" in the US allowed the overrunning of Europe. I 
> believe that it was the Europeans themselves who allowed this by their 
> acquiescence to Hitler's early demands. 
> 
> I was referring to the character of our citizens in earlier times. The 
> "greatest generation" survived a great depression and then went on to the 
> greatest military victory in history. I wouldn't want to repeat any of 
> those events nor any other tragic events in our history, but I do admire 
> those who successfully navigated that part of our history with their vigor 
> and courage. Also, the generations before them who expanded the country 
> against all kinds of perils. I wouldn't want to see any people savaged and 
> displaced as we did the American Indians, but again, I admire those 
> individuals with the sand to have conquered a new territory against such 
> odds. I wonder if this sort of spirit and courage is still a part of the 
> average American's character? I have no doubt about our brave military 
> members, but what about the average Joe? 
> 
> Nuking Afghanistan.... 
> 
> Yes, certain remote parts where Bin Laden might have been found should have 
> been laid to waste with tactical weapons. I don't know if it would have 
> been effective, but we should always pursue our enemies with that kind of 
> vigor because if nothing else, it is a warning to other legitimate 
> governments not to support terrorists. I don't believe that terrorists in 
> their own right can be very effective against us without the monetary and 
> security support of a sponsoring state. Iran is more then willing to fill 
> this role. These middle eastern countries believe we will always take the 
> easy way out and quit when the going gets tough. So far, we haven't done 
> much to prove them wrong. As far as the populated cities in Afghanistan go, 
> I would have used conventional weapons depending on the strategy. I think 
> we set the precedent with Japan in WW2 not to use nukes unless the argument 
> can be made as to the number of American lives that can be saved as a 
> result. I don't think a major invasion of Afghanistan was ever really 
> planned, so we couldn't use the nuke argument against civilians. We should 
> have concentrated on Afghanistan to the point where possibly Bin Laden was 
> killed, the regime was changed and then the populated areas occupied and 
> secured. This would have had the added benefit of stopping most of the 
> poppy growing which would also be very advantageous to the world. This 
> would/should have taken a declaration of war which is a lot harder for the 
> politicians to run away from and can be legally justified because we were 
> attacked. 
> 
> Instead, we have the son trying to vindicate the father using faulty 
> intelligence and poor planning to invade and conquer a country which was 
> basically bottled up and where we have no legal right to be in the first 
> place. Bush 41 is mostly to blame for the Iraq mess IMO. He really has no 
> excuse having fought in WW2 to have left a dictator in power once that 
> dictator had crossed his borders and invaded another country. This is what 
> Hitler did and in Chamberlain-type fashion, 41 let him get away with it. 
> Instead, we resorted to sanctions which do nothing but make people even 
> madder at you and more resolute. 41 was more worried about his "coalition" 
> then the long-term welfare of our nation. The justification was there in 
> GW1 for pacifying Iraq and we didn't do it. 
> 
> I am a devout UN-hater and blame the concept of the UN for most of our 
> problems in the last 60 years. Cases in point: 
> 
> Korea-Communists still in power to this day after invading a sovereign 
> country. Have acquired nuclear weapons which regardless of what they say, 
> they intend to keep. We went in as part of the UN coalition and the job was 
> not finished because we were/are deathly afraid of the Chinese. No end in 
> sight. 
> 
> Viet Nam-Can't really blame the UN for that one. We were deathly afraid of 
> Red China, so no saturation bombing of the North, no mining of Haiphong 
> harbor or other military strategies which I believe could have resulted in 
> victory. 
> 
> Gulf War 1-Again, part of a UN coalition that just didn't quite get the job 
> done, though we had the means. Lead to the present conflict. 
> 
> Gulf War 2-US and Britain acting as the principal agents of the UN in 
> enforcing a UN resolution. No end in sight. 
> 
> Numerous failures in other areas in the Middle East and Africa, notably 
> Palestine. 
> 
> We must be getting some great intelligence from spying on all the foreign 
> missions at the UN, otherwise, why in the world would we remain a member of 
> such an impotent organization? 
> 
> OK... I don't know how I morphed into dissing the UN in this discussion 
> either, but now "you sonsabitches know how I feel"-George C. Scott, opening 
> scene in "Patton". 
> 
> Seriously... Just remember the words of Napoleon: 
> 
> "If you want to be victorious in war... always fight it against a 
> coalition." 
> 
> David Culp 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me the some people forget that we were dragged kicking and 
> screaming into both the World Wars, Have Congress declare war and then we 
> can actually see what happens rather than speculate. The greatest generation 
> allowed Hitler to over run Europe and set up concentration camps. It wasn't 
> until the attack on Pearl Harbor that we finally joined in. I am sure this 
> country would rise up and support a war it it was actually declared to 
> protect our allies or our National security. I do agree that there is much 
> wrong with this country however the good old days may depend on perspective. 
> I don't think many African Americans would want to go back to an even more 
> racist society. The 30s are not my version of the good times.....I do agree 
> that the moral compass is out of whack. 
> 
> Do you really think we should have nuked Afghanistan? I thought we were 
> trying to free them of the Taliban. Once we level their country do we tell 
> them they are now "free"? We would have looked pretty silly dropping nukes 
> and then having Bin laden show up alive in Iran or Pakistan. The 911 group 
> was from Saudi Arabia....do we nuke them as well? 
> 
> I do agree we need to do away with PAC money. 
> 
> Wally 
> 
> On 6/26/07, David Culp wrote: 
> > 
> > Interesting observations... I'd rather talk about sailing but here are 
> > mine 
> > for others to contemplate: 
> > 
> > I envy Stan in that he and his generation were truly the greatest and 
> > quite 
> > frankly, our country is in decline and has been since after Korea. Very 
> > slowly at first but then accelerating after Viet Nam. I worry about the 
> > kind of country that my children and grandchildren will be growing up in. 
> > If the present list of candidates for President in either of the two 
> > parties 
> > is any indication, my worries are well-founded. However, one person 
> > cannot 
> > save a nation; it takes the body politic to do so. 
> > 
> > I listened to a fellow the other day who was advocating legalized 
> > prostitution in our country-seemed to think that it would alleviate a lot 
> > of 
> > problems and generate more tax revenue. It occurred to me that we already 
> > have legalized prostitution in this country with approximately 525 
> > "whores" 
> > legally working on Capitol Hill and literally hundreds of "Johns" legally 
> > working on K Street in Washington DC. This is what your government and 
> > ultimately your country have come to-politicians sold out to the highest 
> > bidder. This cannot be what the original framers of our Constitution and 
> > our country had in mind and is certainly not worth dying for.... Is 
> > it? It 
> > is time to stop all lobbying by any individual, corporation or union in 
> > our 
> > government because it renders the will of the average voter to be less 
> > effective and it is the average voter's children who die on the 
> > battlefield. 
> > 
> > According to the Constitution, wars are declared by Congress. We are not 
> > in 
> > a declared war, so therefore I think that it helps to answer the question 
> > why the American people are not engaged and politicians are abandoning the 
> > cause. When you go to war, you have to have a culmination of those 
> > efforts 
> > in some form or another. Just think if you went to a sports event and 
> > suddenly the referees called the whole thing off in the third quarter with 
> > no victor declared. No one would be interested in coming to the event 
> > again 
> > and only the most dedicated of players would show up to get in a good 
> > practice session. This is what has happened in Korea, Viet Nam (our team 
> > left the field) and probably Iraq. Bush thought he was going to fight a 
> > short "cable TV" war with great ratings and vindicate his father all at 
> > the 
> > same time. Unfortunately, the American people are now tuning out and 
> > regrettably we have over 3500 dead and thousands wounded. And for what? 
> > What have we accomplished? 
> > 
> > In war you must have closure one way or the other. Germany and Japan are 
> > both allies today, yet they were mortal enemies 60 years ago. The 
> > difference is that there was a final score. We won. Our goals were clear 
> > and our fight was with the peoples of both of those countries. We broke 
> > both countries militarily and we broke their citizens will to continue the 
> > fight. We have not done that since. The referees (UN) and the 
> > politicians 
> > keep screwing up the matches I suppose. 
> > 
> > The only thing in my opinion that can save the Iraq campaign now is for 
> > Israel to attack Iran. They most certainly would retaliate against 
> > American 
> > forces in Iraq who will grant over-flight and other support for the 
> > bombing 
> > missions and this would in some ways vindicate the ill advised decision to 
> > go there in the first place. Why else would two full carrier battle 
> > groups 
> > be prowling the Gulf right now? I'm sure the present administration is 
> > hoping for this very thing. Iran is the true enemy in the Middle East and 
> > their leadership should be eliminated and the civilian population 
> > decimated 
> > to the point where their spirit is broken and they no longer wish to fight 
> > anyone. This is how we won in Germany and Japan, unless you happen to 
> > believe that the photos of the bomb-leveled cities of Germany were faked 
> > or 
> > the two atomic bombs dropped in Japan only killed Japanese sailors and 
> > soldiers. The next President who tells me that our fight is not with the 
> > "people" of a certain country is the next President who should be 
> > impeached 
> > immediately, as a war can only be fought between two "peoples". 
> > Ultimately, we the people either elect the leaders or allow the dictators 
> > to 
> > remain who take us to war. 
> > 
> > For example: Afghanistan should have been leveled after 9/11 including 
> > the 
> > use of tactical nukes in the mountains to get Bin Laden. The government 
> > (the people) allowed the Taliban to remain who supported Bin Laden, who 
> > attacked us on our own soil. If you are shaking your head "no" over this 
> > observation, then my friend, you are not prepared for real war. I would 
> > say 
> > that America and Americans overall no longer have the stomach and are not 
> > prepared for real war which I say again.... Is a struggle between peoples. 
> > The reality is that Coalition forces are still being attacked and poppy 
> > production which is Afghanistan's most important export is the highest on 
> > record. So much for victory there. 
> > 
> > Does that mean that I like the idea of war... with women and children or 
> > other innocents being killed? No, certainly not, not in this country or 
> > any 
> > other. But this is the true cost of true war. And when a country's 
> > citizens tire of paying the true cost of war, they will take a different 
> > tack just as Japan and Germany did after WW2 and just as we will in Iraq 
> > though we tend to change course under far less devastating circumstances 
> > which over time may ultimately be our downfall. 
> > 
> > David Culp 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > While we are choosing the cut of our next mainsail, kids are still dying 
> > in 
> > Iraq. Mostly, they are killed from IEDs, enhanced with C4 from Iran 
> > (semtex 
> > too), but other sources as well. Sorry too spoil your otherwise pleasant 
> > day 
> > but twenty-year-old kids have their asses at risk as we speak, while in 
> > cyberspace, we mentally masturbate about defending your right to bitch 
> > about 
> > why they are there, OR, we debate the cut of our mainsail. Go sailing on 
> > the 4th of July and forget about all that died to make that holiday 
> > happen. 
> > I can't blame you for not having a clue about what is happening in Iraq 
> > right now, why should you care when there is so much more interesting news 
> > happening. Did Paris eat a snatch in prison? Inquiring minds want to 
> > know! I don't know what your plans on the 4th are but I'm taking the 
> > CoraShen out and flying the flag. Why can't we all get along? The 
> > Germans 
> > just wanted a little territory and a few less Jews. No problem there. 
> > Right? Sorry for spoiling an otherwise great sail but wake up 
> > folks! Your 
> > weekend sailing satisfaction is not guaranteed! The war that is nothing 
> > more than a bumper sticker might just blow-up right in your face. Happy 
> > 4th! (I'll be gone until the 6th of July so the world is your 
> > responsibility. Good Luck! 
> > 
> > Brad 
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