[Rhodes22-list] U.S. medical system leading cause of death - comment to Peter

Thu Apr 24 15:56:13 EDT 2008

Herb,

My thoughts were along the following lines: if I die in bed with my
neighbors wife from a gunshot wound while smoking with a scotch in my hand,
what really killed me and where will we put my death in the stats?

The last stat I heard on medical errors was in a Check Airman class.  For us
(as pilots) to replicate the rate of death from errors by the medical
profession, we'd have to totally destroy 3 fully loaded 747's every week for
a whole year.  Lets do the math.  That's 500 x 3 x 52 = 78000.  I have now
idea where that statistic came from but it's a hellava lot lower than any
quoted yet.  I'm guessing the incredible numbers quoted came from the Trial
Lawyers Association.

BTW, one of my co-workers runs a very successful Human Factors training
company teaching CRM (Crew Resource Management) to pilots and another
version of the same subject to surgical teams. It's done wonders for
aviation and is catching on in medicine.

I'll take my chances on health care under the current good 'ole' USA
system.  Figure out how to make it accessible to everyone without me having
to foot the bill and I'm 100% behind it.  If you find a way to fund it
without people needing a job, please explain how in the hell you're ever
going to get anyone to look for work.  Finding good employees is hard enough
as it is!

Before anyone jumps my shit on that comment, please tell me where your hot
dog stand is located and how well you're doing.

Brad

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:20 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
wrote:

> And, that's the elephant in the room that's being ignored. This country
> will continue to have one of the best health care systems in the world,
> as long as it's controlled by the free enterprise system (instead of
> socialism). What will continue to keep it from being the very best, and
> continue to force most of the problems it has, is the our support of a
> system whose livlihood is dependent placing blame for a natural event -
> death.
>
> We need to control the litigation of the health care industry - that
> will control the prices.
>
> Unfortunately, we depend on lawmakers, most of whom were formerly
> LAWYERS, to control that litigation.
>
> Waddaya think the chances are of THAT happening.
>
> Notice none of them are pointing to the "evil" lawyers - it's always the
> insurance companies and/or the health care providers...
>
> Rik Sandberg wrote:
> > Herb,
> >
> > True. That is probably the biggest detriment to good medicine that man
> > has ever devised.
> >
> > But I figured we'd all already agree on that anyway. :-)
> >
> > Rik
> >
> > "Stupid is supposed to be painful" .... Rik Sandberg
> >
> >
> >
> > Herb Parsons wrote:
> >
> >> In addition to the other information provided so far, you have to also
> >> factor in the fact that there is an entire industry whose livelihood is
> >> dependent on proving that the doctor/medical providor was "to blame".
> >> There's little doubt that lawyers have helped make the numbers look
> >> greater than they are.
> >>
> >> Rik Sandberg wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> Good point, but my "Somebody isn't very good at statistics" was meant
> to
> >>> be ironical.
> >>>
> >>> Don't believe for a minute though, that I am confusing anything with
> >>> fact. Most of the "statistics" on these sites begin to make sense when
> >>> you consider who is going to benefit from the money spent by the suck
> >>> ..... uh, believers. Most of the math looks pretty fuzzy to me and
> >>> always slants the way the particular vendor needs it to. Also, for the
> >>> 26 years I knew her before her stroke, my wife was involved in the
> >>> medical profession (respiratory therapist). We have had many, MANY
> >>> discussions about problems caused by drugs and/or combinations of them.
> >>>
> >>> I've spent quite a bit of time on the internet the last two years
> trying
> >>> to find things that might help my wife after her stroke. Many of the
> >>> pages that come up when you Google Pete's "us medical system
> >>> number one cause of deaths" are pages that I have seen before as I have
> >>> searched for both natural remedies that might be useful and problems
> >>> that I might expect to encounter with the various pharmaceuticals that
> >>> have been prescribed to my wife.
> >>>
> >>> In defense of the doctors though, I find it troubling that the
> >>> supposedly knowledgeable people writing these sites so easily put the
> >>> blame on a "doctors mistake" when folks have problems with side effects
> >>> from a drug. Anyone who has been around medicine for more than a few
> >>> minutes should know that every human is different and it is impossible
> >>> to know in advance what an individual's reaction will be to any given
> >>> drug. Some people tolerate things and others don't. All the doctor can
> >>> do is try different things and learn from the results for each
> >>> individual. In this case a decision may be wrong, but that doesn't
> >>> necessarily make it a mistake.
> >>>
> >>> But, as I said earlier, I/we don't like pharmaceutical pills/drugs in
> >>> general and avoid them whenever possible.
> >>>
> >>> Rik
> >>>
> >>> "Stupid is supposed to be painful" .... Rik Sandberg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Rik,
> >>>>
> >>>> On the contrary, somebody is very good with statistics.  According to
> Mark Twain, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and
> statistics."  Please do not confuse what is written on the Internet with
> fact.  One must verify, corroborate and validate the materials.
> >>>>
> >>>> Without taking sides on this issue since I am involved in the US
> system of medical care, I am moved to investigate further before dismissing
> the material.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike
> >>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> >>>> Nissequogue River, NY
> >>>>
> >>>> From: "Rik Sandberg" <sanderico1 at gmail.com>Sent: Thursday, April 24,
> 2008 9:59 AM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Perhaps we need to consider who is putting these statistics out here
> for
> >>>>> us. Looks like most of these folks would like to sell us some
> >>>>> nutritional supplements. I am not a fan of doctors and pills. I avoid
> >>>>> them like the plague. I have also seen though, that the BS the
> >>>>> nutritional supplement industry slings around gets pretty fantastic.
> >>>>> While I do believe that nutritional supplements are less likely to do
> >>>>> you harm than pharmaceuticals, chances are, they won't live up to the
> >>>>> miracle claims made about them either.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> One article has heart disease deaths at 910,000 annually. Another
> says
> >>>>> 700,000. Quite a spread. Somebody isn't very good at statistics.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rik
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Stupid is supposed to be painful" .... Rik Sandberg
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> petelargo wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> No sir. You are absolutely 100% incorrect. This is based on
> statistical
> >>>>>> evidence. I won't do your research for you. Just google 'us medical
> system
> >>>>>> number one cause of deaths'.  It's a tough pill to swallow. (pun
> intended).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "New information has been presented showing the degree to which
> Americans
> >>>>>> have been subjected to injury and death by medical errors. The
> results of
> >>>>>> seven years of research reviewing thousands of studies conducted by
> the NIA
> >>>>>> now show that medical errors are the number one cause of death and
> injury in
> >>>>>> the United States. According to the NIA's report, over 784,000
> people die
> >>>>>> annually due to medical mistakes. Comparatively, the 2001 annual
> death rate
> >>>>>> for heart disease was 699,697 and the annual death rate for cancer
> was
> >>>>>> 553,251."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tootle wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Peter,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> When making such statements, please post citations and references.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would suggest that your citations will come from the media which
> goes
> >>>>>>> out of its way to cause controversy to drum up business.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Medical mistakes do occur, but having spent many years in several
> >>>>>>> hospitals; I would say your statement is not accurate.  Especially
> when
> >>>>>>> compared to medical care around the world.  Yes, I have personally
> >>>>>>> inspected health care in a 3rd world country.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would rather suggest that you consider that people doing 'stupid'
> things
> >>>>>>> is the leading cause of death.  That would include reckless
> driving, no
> >>>>>>> life preservers while boating, smoking, excessive alcohol,
> excessive and
> >>>>>>> recreational drugs, suicide, believing the national media that the
> world
> >>>>>>> is ending, believing the national media that all is negative...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Again, like many others, the national media has created a herd
> sheep
> >>>>>>> mentality...  Remember, that man was not created to live forever.
>  That
> >>>>>>> disease and pestilence are our lot.  Take each hour given you, do
> your
> >>>>>>> best and enjoy it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In the meantime, remember that physicians use available science to
> fix a
> >>>>>>> problem and get people going a few hours longer.  They are not
> 'God'.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> However, they can be stifled by bureaucratic controlled systems.
>  They can
> >>>>>>> be stifled by socialism.  Socialism kills human initiative.
>  Doctors are
> >>>>>>> only human, and their initiative and imagination can be debilitated
> >>>>>>> fighting socialistic controlled systems.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ed K
> >>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
> >>>>>>> "Every great advancement in science has issued from a new audacity
> of
> >>>>>>> imagination." John Dewey
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> petelargo wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for your post. You will see plenty scare tactic e-mails and
> 'BOO'
> >>>>>>>> blogs on this in the upcoming months. Most will be nonsense.  By
> what
> >>>>>>>> measure is the current health care system so great if right now
> the
> >>>>>>>> health care system itself in the united states is the leading
> cause of
> >>>>>>>> death? Somethings wrong and I mean big time.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Lynn Hoffman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I noticed in one of the recent diatribes, a letter from someone
> who
> >>>>>>>>> claimed
> >>>>>>>>> that socialism killed his parents. There's a lot to be said about
> >>>>>>>>> that letter, but
> >>>>>>>>> I think I'll just comment on the claim that there are only three
> >>>>>>>>> oncologists in Montreal.
> >>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I've come to know a little bit about oncologists
> and
> >>>>>>>>> where to
> >>>>>>>>> find 'em. Here's the medical roster of the oncology department at
> one
> >>>>>>>>> hospital there. (McGill)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Gerald Batist - Chair
> >>>>>>>>> Penny Chipman, Manager, Clinical Research Program
> >>>>>>>>> Fran Ezzy-Jorgensen, Administrative Officer, Department of
> Oncology
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Eduardo Franco - Cancer Division of Epidemiology
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Carolyn Freeman - Division of Radiation Oncology
> >>>>>>>>> Dr. Thomas Jagoe - Cancer Nutrition-Rehabilitation Program
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Petr Kavan - Adolescent and Young Adult Oncology Program
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Carmen Loiselle - Oncology Nursing
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Richard Margolese - Oncology Department, JGH
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Catalin Mihalcioiu - Division of Medical Oncology
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Wilson Miller - Clinical Research Program
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Lawrence Panasci - Division of Medical Oncology
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Michael Pollack - Cancer Prevention Program
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Jaroslav Prchal - Community Oncology Program
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Zeev Rosberger - Psychosocial Oncology Program
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Jeremy Sturgeon - Oncology Department, MUHC
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Simon Tanguay - Prostate Cancer Program
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Marc Tischkowitz - Cancer Genetics Program
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Anna Towers - Palliative Care
> >>>>>>>>> Dr Michel Tremblay - Basic Cancer Research
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So the guy who wrote that is a patent liar. The sad thing is that
> >>>>>>>>> many people will read that and remember something about how
> >>>>>>>>> 'socialized medicine killed somebody and ain't it a shame?' The
> good
> >>>>>>>>> news is that this crap is the best they got and maybe we'll get
> >>>>>>>>> somewhere with health care when people know the facts.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lynn
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lynn Hoffman is the author of bang BANG, a novel about a woman
> who
> >>>>>>>>> uses some unusual weapons to tackle the gun culture in
> Philadelphia.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> He is also the author of  The New Short Course in Wine from
> >>>>>>>>> PrenticeHall.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> More? want to read rave reviews? an excerpt?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> http://www.kunati.com
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You can read more and order a copy of bang-BANG from:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1601640005
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> or from your local bookseller.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If you're looking for great wines for less than $US20, get the
> latest
> >>>>>>>>> finds at http://shortcourseinwine.blogspot.com/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>
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