[Rhodes22-list] ALICE WEISZ - my comment

Wed Aug 27 16:27:50 EDT 2008

Alice -

I concur with Rummy.  In 50 years of working with a wide
variety of small and medium sized engines, I have only had
to replace two carburetors:  One was melted in an engine
fire and the other was ruined when some ham-handed idiot
cranked down on the idle jet with an impact wrench and
deformed the whole throat.

If the problem with your engine is with the carburetor, it is fixable.

/Robert

R22RumRunner at aol.com wrote:
> Alice,
> I've seen very few cases where the carburetor actually needed to be  
> replaced. A good mechanic would be able to remove it from your motor and rebuild  it 
> after soaking in a cleaner to remove any deposits. The whole procedure  
> shouldn't be more than $50.00.
>  
> Rummy
>  
>  
> In a message dated 8/26/2008 7:01:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> amicw5 at msn.com writes:
>
> Paul,
>
> Thanks so much for your input (and that of your  mechanic).  I did find a 
> trustworthy mechanic on Kent Island (Eric at Cox  Creek Services) who was willing 
> to go to my boat and work on the motor.   He too, cited the carburetor as the 
> culprit and cleaned it out using lots of  the the Startron additive to the 
> gas (made by Starbrite - to explain a prior  Rhodie's posting) ; when I added 
> more gas he advised more Strartron to go with  it.  My engine is NOT purring, 
> but he said that if I'm willing to go  along with it, as is, I can defer the 
> purchase of a new carburetor at approx  $400. plus labor - my response: my cat 
> purrs, and that's enough for me as long  as I can get the engine into gear.  
> Needless to say, I was off sailing  the next day and the day after that!!
>
> I was fascinated by your  explanation of the the tiny opening in the 
> carburetor.  Can you describe  where it is??  My manual doesn't even NAME the 
> carburetor and although I  THINK I know where it is, I don't yet know how to 
> disconnect it or get inside  of it to clean.  Any possibility that you could describe 
> it to  me?????   I'd be appreciative.  Since my engine is autostart, I  have an 
> electric "gismo" (black columnar apparatus) sitting atop the big  silver 
> metal "thing" that I think is the carburetor.  The latter has an  opening that I 
> would compare with a crosshatched grate that is round.   It's where I've been 
> spraying all the "Carburetor cleaner" to no avail.   I removed the electric 
> "gismo" (industry term) on top but chickened out at  that point (once I see 
> electric wires, my mind says: stay clear for fear of  disconnecting one and then 
> REALLY being screwed).
>
> If I were an artistic  sort, I might draw the thing, but I'm not... and I've 
> never figured out how to  use PAINT or any of the creative computer features.  
> I'm strictly a  scientist... my idea of drawing involves arrows and possibly 
> stick  figures.  I'd like to be able to try the 'twist tie' approach in the  
> future, if needed.  Actually, pipe cleaners come to mind bathed in an  organic 
> solvent....or Startron.  The mechanic DID install a small filter  on the gas 
> hose between tank and bulb.  We discussed the 10 micron filter  but he 
> explained that it was rather large and wasn't exactly sure where he'd  be able to 
> install it  - possibly the lazarette although if I understood  correctly, he might 
> have said that it's usually exterior to the  boat.
>
> Again, thanks for your advice and insight.
>
> Alice
> BEATS  PROZAC 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Paul  Krawitz<mailto:krawitzmail-rhodes22 at yahoo.com> 
> To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
> Cc: stan<mailto:stan at rhodes22.com> 
> Sent: Monday, August 18,  2008 9:02 AM
> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] ALICE WEISZ - my  comment
>
>
> Alice,
> I too expressed distressed  helplessness, directly to
> Stan, when my engine died on me a minute  AFTER
> starting, leaving me a dead duck on my mooring.
> And  I'm out frequently - three times per week - so
> all the disuse/old  gas explanations didn't apply.
>
> And like you, I used to be "hands  off" with the engine.
>
> I've done less than you, but with the  guidance of the
> good Rhodies and my Yamaha mechanic, have  figured
> out the problem with these Yamaha 4-stroke engines
> (Stan previously used the 9.9, but is now using the 8HP).
>
> Previous posts have correctly noted that Ethanol, (ethyl
> alcohol),  binds with water, resulting in a gas-water separation,
> with water at  the bottom where the hose rests in your tank.
> This is primarily a  problem with lengthy cold weather storage
> of incompletely filled  tanks.
>
> But because Ethanol is a small
> molecule<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Physical_properties>with<http://
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Physical_properties>with>
> a small carbon chain,
> it acts not only as a water soluble solvent  but also as an organic solvent.
> This latter characteristic is why  Ethanol is able to dissolve crud
> and old plastics, dispersing the  material in small
> particles<http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/1000
> 1/-1/10001/Gasoline-EthanolYourBoat.htm>that<http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/
> wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1/10001/Gasoline-EthanolYourBoat.htm%3Et
> hat>
> foul up the engine.
>
> Now here is the Achilles heel in the whole  system...
>
> Unlike two stroke engines, which have large  jets
> that vacuum the gas/oil mix into the carburetor, those on  the
> four-stroke engines are so narrow that my mechanic cannot  even
> use his normal tools to clean them out. Instead, as he  showed
> me yesterday, he burns the end off of a twist tie and uses  that
> to thread through the carburetor jets.
>
> The jets  are so narrow that holding them up to the sky,
> I could barely see  daylight through them. And that was
> after they were cleaned  out.
>
> The bottom line?
>
> You could clean out the fuel  line, filter, and carburetor itself
> till you were blue in the face,  and fail to fix your problem.
>
> In fact, my engine, which failed  me for the second time
> this weekend, had NOTHING VISIBLE blocking  the the
> gas flow. But after my mechanic threaded the twist ties  through the
> carburetor - Voila! It started.
>
> Once the  jets are cleaned out, the answer to reduce these incidents is
> to get  an inline filter that fits immediately after the gas tank.
> My  mechanic said he would have recommended a 10 micron
> filter, such as  this one previously
> posted<http://www.crockersmarinestore.com/servlet/the-44/Yamaha-10-Micron-Fuel
> /Detail<http://www.crockersmarinestore.com/servlet/the-44/Yamaha-10-Micron-Fue
> l/Detail>>,
> but that "because
> my boat was so small," he'd put on a tiny one inch  filter instead.
>
> That's not a problem, I told him. Give me the  big sucker.
> Thanks to the excellent design of my Rhodes
> 22<http://www.rhodes22.c
> om/contruction_detail.html<http://www.rhodes22.com/contruction_detail.html>>,
> I've got plenty
> of room below my cockpit bench.
>
> He's  actually recommending another filter that's similar, but
> not  identical. Apparently, the Yamaha filter isn't entirely
> aluminum.  The screw of the top rusts inside; he showed me one
> that this  happened to.
>
> My mechanic said that new boats should be installed  with
> the filter already in place and that the ethanol related  fuel
> problems are ubiquitous on four stroke engines, both  large
> and small.
>
> I expect that this filter will  reduce, but not eliminate the
> starting problems that I've had. It's  a system destined for
> failure, with the constant battle raging on  between the
> Ethanol-laced gasoline and those puny carburetor  jets.
> And I hate feeling so  paralyzed on a day that I  really
> want to get out and simply sail. After all, one of  the
> characteristics of Rhodes 22 sailors  
> <http://www.rhodes22.org<http://www.rhodes22.org/>> is that  we
> actually
> use our boats.
>
> Now don't laugh,  but during my second painful fiasco,
> I entertained the idea of  having a backup electric battery outboard
> motor, such as the  Torqeedo electric
> outboard<http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1
> /10001/265317/377%20710%20884/0/Electric%20Outboards/Primary%20Search/mode%20m
> atchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710%20884&Ne=0&Ntt=Electric%20Outboards&Ntx=mode%20
> matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5005&subd
> eptNum=10&classNum=820<http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/pro
> ducte/10001/-1/10001/265317/377%20710%20884/0/Electric%20Outboards/Primary%20S
> earch/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710%20884&Ne=0&Ntt=Electric%20Outboar
> ds&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&isLTokenURL=true&stor
> eNum=5005&subdeptNum=10&classNum=820>>.
> It's portable,
> takes only a few minutes to assemble, and would be  terrific
> insurance. Unfortunately, even the long shaft version,  which I
> envisioned hanging off the transom while my outboard gets  its next
> inevitable
> service call, is too short as  described on the Torqeedo web
> site<http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/products/base-travel/technical-data-measure
> s.html<http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/products/base-travel/technical-data-measu
> res.html>>
> .
>
> A final recommendation about the choke on these engines  from
> my mechanic. He said not to try to start them with the  choke
> fully open unless the weather was cold. First, try  starting
> them with the choke closed. Next, start it with the  choke
> closed and during the cranking, open the choke for three  seconds
> before closing it again. If that doesn't work, open the  choke halfway. Only
> as a last step should you start with the choke  fully open.
>
> One more note to SS: The technique of putting the  throttle
> in gear and opening the throttle back and forth a few  times
> before putting it in neutral and starting doesn't work on the  8 HP engine
> because there is no accelerator pump in the carburetor  on that engine
> (per my crusty old Yamaha mechanic).
>
> The bottom line? We're going to all have to take measures to reduce
> these engine failures. But be prepared for more frustrations, because  the
> engines are not yet designed to counteract the minefield of  gasohol.
>
> Paul Krawitz
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