[Rhodes22-list] History
Herb Parsons
hparsons at parsonsys.com
Wed Dec 31 14:29:05 EST 2008
Just a question - so you feel that Rummy's comments that Bush was the
dumbest son of a bitch we've ever had as president were "an example of
what list members used to be inspired to do to 'help each other'"?
I hope you see my point...
Mary Lou Troy wrote:
> Sorry Brad, I may go sailing in bad weather and I do leave my house
> regularly but I don't feel I should need a Kevlar vest to participate
> in an email list with people who like the same kind of boat I do. A
> sense of humor and a positive attitude maybe but not a Kevlar vest. I
> haven't been able to see much to be humorous about around here lately
> even though some of the jokes have been funny. I feel my positive
> attitude has been beaten out of me. This has gone a long way beyond
> "a few barbs".
>
> I included Rummy as an example of what list members used to be
> inspired to do to "help each other". I saw his actions and those of
> countless others as being in the spirit of the charter and being
> examples of what we are in danger of losing if we all decide we don't
> want to be bothered. I haven't been in touch with him. I don't know
> if he'll be back. I don't know who will be here next week. I'm hoping
> that there will be a list that I want to participate in.
>
> Mary Lou
> 1991 R22 Fretless
> Rock Hall, MD
>
> At 01:39 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
>
>> Mary Lou,
>>
>> Rummy was one of the biggest antagonists on the list. Trust me,
>> he'll get tired of lurking and come back. Everyone, get over your
>> pity party and put on your Kevlar vests. For goodness sakes, if you
>> can't take a few barbs in cyberspace you probably shouldn't leave
>> your house on a sailboat where the weather could turn nasty and the
>> boom could knock your head off!
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> --- On Wed, 12/31/08, Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net> wrote:
>> From: Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] History
>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 12:27 PM
>>
>> Here's the history as I remember it dating at least to early 1998.
>> Similar to Bill's but differing in a few key factors. (If people are
>> going to be using the archives for list history I figured I ought to
>> post the history as I remember it.)
>>
>> I believe the early list was a Sail-net email list. Sailnet was
>> founded in 1994. I don't know when they started their email lists. I
>> think I found the Rhodes list about the same time we purchased
>> Fretless in the Spring of 1998 maybe a bit before. It was not a
>> Rhodes 22 list but a list for admirers and owners of any Rhodes
>> designed boat. The R22 owners quickly overwhelmed the list and it
>> became a de facto R22 list. We were delighted to find each other. If
>> there was another email list before that, it was not a link on the
>> GB website in early 1996 when we started looking at the R22. There
>> was evidently a print R22 Owners Association newsletter that ceased
>> publication in 1991. Sailnet changed owners several times with
>> impacts on email list reliability and the rules for the list. At some
>> point (2002) our esteemed Michael Meltzer (who did indeed help GB get
>> into the web business in the 90s and was a long-time R22 owner)
>> offered to host the list on his server. He put it together in one
>> night using the rhodes22.org domain which he had already used in
>> setting up the Rhodes owners site on his server. That was the genesis
>> of the current list. For a while people were on both lists but
>> eventually the Sailnet traffic withered away and Sailnet got rid of
>> their email lists completely earlier this year. They still have
>> forums (bulletin boards) and there is still a Rhodes forum there.
>>
>> In the early days of the list there were several gatherings of Rhodes
>> owners (and wannabees). There was a memorable dinner at Carroll's
>> Creek Restaurant and another at Buddy's in Annapolis after the Boat
>> Show. I remember Cam Whetstone carrying his new centerboard cap
>> around as we waited to get in and Michael Meltzer checking email on
>> his laptop long before any of the rest of us had heard of aircards.
>> This was followed by a couple years when Jan Eyres (event planner
>> extraordinaire) and I (but mostly Jan) planned an after hours catered
>> dinner at the Annapolis Boat Show. Michael arranged the passes to get
>> us in after-hours. Somewhere I still have the pics from that. There
>> was a memorable gathering at Kentucky Lake. We didn't go but it is
>> memorialized with pics on the Rhodes owners website. There was a
>> marriage. There were a couple of gatherings on the Chesapeake as well
>> as well as several mid-winter Chesapeake PlanJams - the last at my
>> house last January with 30 some people. At this year's Boat
>> Show (and last year's) we had lunch with Rhodes owners from the list
>> in a mini-gathering organized on the list. These things won't happen
>> if people sign off the list because of the content or the tone of the
>> conversations.
>>
>> In the early days, if there were angry outbursts and hard feelings
>> they mostly went off list. One person (maybe two) did get banned when
>> they couldn't abide by the charter. It was Michael's call. It was his
>> list. Bill is right that Stan used to send people to the list but I
>> don't think Stan ever claimed ownership. I know that we all have felt
>> a great deal of gratitude to Stan for continuing to build and recycle
>> the boats that we sail with such pleasure. For the most part we have
>> tried to be helpful to General Boats. My guess is that the link to
>> the list came off the GB website when politics started getting ugly.
>> I'm pretty sure Stan still sends people to the list but probably only
>> after they have bought the boat or at least have made the decision to
>> buy the boat.
>>
>> The list charter was a group effort by members of the list to make
>> rules that we could live with and still get along with each other to
>> everyone's benefit.
>>
>> Rummy, who just left the list, through his own good efforts compiled
>> an owners list that was available to any member in good standing of
>> that list. It was invaluable as we got to know each other. When Rummy
>> decided to pack it in, I volunteered to take on the owners list but
>> life intervened and I didn't get to it. By the time I was ready to
>> take up the effort the political problems were in full swing and I
>> wasn't feeling all that eager (not a good excuse just the truth about
>> how I felt at the time). If the list becomes tolerable again, maybe
>> I'll make another attempt.
>>
>> Mary Lou
>> 1991 R22 Fretless
>> Rock Hall, MD
>>
>>
>> At 12:06 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
>>
>>> That's good history to know.
>>> When I signed up about 2 years ago, (that seams to be when it started
>>> downhill) I was refered to by Stan also. I saw all the political crap &
>>>
>> was
>>
>>> dissappointed....and said so. I got a shorter version of the same
>>> explanation & then understood. I was told this was not Stans list....by
>>> Stan.
>>> I agree with you nothing should be done different, the charter covers it.
>>>
>> My
>>
>>> problem is that some people insult you in such a nice way, it's allowed
>>>
>> ...&
>>
>>> when someone comes right out & says it, it's a bad thing. I was
>>>
>> disgusted by
>>
>>> some of the things said about our last President, I just as disgusted that
>>> some people won't even give the new one a chance.
>>> Jb
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:32 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Jb,
>>>>
>>>> Michael built and maintained Stan's website. In return, Stan
>>>>
>> would tow
>>
>>>> Michael's boat to Edenton every winter, upgrade it, install
>>>>
>> "test"
>>
>>>> equipment, bottom paint it, and get it back to Michael in time for an
>>>> early launch.
>>>>
>>>> At some point, Michael suggested the formation of an email group so
>>>>
>> that
>>
>>>> people could ask each other all the questions that Stan couldn't
>>>> possibly respond to...even if he owned a computer, and knew how to
>>>>
>> use it.
>>
>>>> Michael put links on Stan's website so both existing owners and
>>>>
>> newbies
>>
>>>> could find "da list". (Remember, Google is only 10 years
>>>>
>> old -- it was
>>
>>>> difficult for anyone other than a computer geek to find anything on
>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>> Internet, and email lists were not indexed.) Almost everyone who got
>>>>
>> on
>>
>>>> "da list" at that time was sent here by Stan, both from his
>>>>
>> website and
>>
>>>> from in-person recommendations both before and after boat purchases.
>>>>
>>>> I know I got here because Stan suggested I could learn a lot from
>>>>
>> people
>>
>>>> on the list. I know many others who got here the same way.
>>>>
>>>> Michael is one of the smartest people on the planet. In the early
>>>>
>> days,
>>
>>>> he would answer 9 out of 10 questions asked. He talked to Stan
>>>> regularly, and when he didn't know the answer, and felt it was a
>>>>
>> good
>>
>>>> question, he would call Stan after hours and come up with the
>>>>
>> technical
>>
>>>> information the rest of us sought.
>>>>
>>>> We hopped onto the Sailnet list server at some point. They wanted to
>>>>
>> be
>>
>>>> a web portal for sailers. They offered free list-hosting. As they
>>>>
>> grew
>>
>>>> they encountered growing pains. They switched software, and lost
>>>> everyone on the list in the process. Those of us who cared,
>>>>
>> contacted
>>
>>>> everyone else back-channel and told them what had happened and what
>>>>
>> they
>>
>>>> had to do to get back on the list. I believe we had 34 members at
>>>>
>> that
>>
>>>> point.
>>>>
>>>> Then Sailnet started selling things, and made a rule that no one else
>>>> could sell anything on any list they hosted. Then they started
>>>> monitoring lists to enforce the rule, and bouncing out people who
>>>> violated their rule.
>>>>
>>>> We started looking for another way to run our list, and Michael came
>>>>
>> up
>>
>>>> with the Mailman Program which he hosted and maintained as
>>>>
>> administrator.
>>
>>>> At some point Stan learned to use a computer, and started providing
>>>> information directly to the list. What a treat! When somebody got
>>>> something wrong, or had a better way to solve a problem, the guy who
>>>> built the boat would actually discuss the issue on an open forum!
>>>>
>>>> Michael was plugged into the blogging community before anyone used
>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>> word "blog". He would get jokes, and "insider
>>>>
>> info" and post it to the
>>
>>>> list long before any other sailor had access to what he posted. Some
>>>> complained that it was "off-topic" but Stan always said he
>>>>
>> loved it, and
>>
>>>> didn't give a damn if anyone didn't think it was funny, or
>>>>
>> disagreed
>>
>>>> with anyone else's political views. And, he said, living in
>>>>
>> Edenton, he
>>
>>>> wasn't locally exposed to a lot of cultural stuff he took for
>>>>
>> granted
>>
>>>> living near NYC.
>>>>
>>>> "Bring it on" said Stan, "and don't worry about
>>>>
>> killing a boat
>>
>>>> sale--this is much more fun--be yourself--respect each other--Michael
>>>> taught me how to use the delete key."
>>>>
>>>> Food fights would erupt from time to time over the exact same issues.
>>>> Politics and Religion were both banned at some point, so people
>>>>
>> started
>>
>>>> inserting their political views in the form of often vicious jokes.
>>>>
>> The
>>
>>>> only way anyone could object to the joke was to explain it in
>>>>
>> political
>>
>>>> terms. The prohibition against Politics was dropped with the mandate
>>>> that all political discussion had to be preceded on the subject line
>>>>
>> by
>>
>>>> the word Politics:
>>>>
>>>> How to use filters to toss all email labeled "Politics:"
>>>>
>> into anyone's
>>
>>>> junk folder was repeatedly explained so that anyone not wishing to
>>>>
>> see
>>
>>>> this stuff would never even know others on the list were actively
>>>> discussing these topics.
>>>>
>>>> Later, a rule was instituted mandating that Jokes: also appears on
>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>> subject line when the content is jokes.
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> At some point the list turned on Stan. It wasn't anyone's
>>>>
>> fault, it was
>>
>>>> just the normal evolution of the Internet.
>>>>
>>>> Some of the people who had been with the list for a long time opted
>>>>
>> to
>>
>>>> purchase other boats. They started singing the praises of their
>>>>
>> boats,
>>
>>>> on Stan's list, and urging others to trade in Stan's boat for
>>>>
>> one
>>
>>>> bigger, or better, or more ostentatious.
>>>>
>>>> Then people who would never have been able to find each other started
>>>> selling boats directly to each other, and cutting Stan out of the
>>>>
>> middle
>>
>>>> -- "Stan offered me $10,000 for this boat, so you know he's
>>>>
>> going to
>>
>>>> sell it for $20,000 -- I'll sell it to anyone on the list for
>>>>
>> $15,000."
>>
>>>> Then people started offering to fabricate parts for Stan's
>>>>
>> boat--"Send
>>
>>>> me the specifications on that trailer, and I'll make one for you
>>>>
>> for 1/2
>>
>>>> what Stan would charge."
>>>>
>>>> Over time they hijacked Stan's list. Stan objected several
>>>>
>> times, and
>>
>>>> many people on the list went out of their way to only buy through
>>>>
>> Stan.
>>
>>>> But, in the end, Stan stopped participating on a regular basis, and
>>>>
>> took
>>
>>>> the list off his web site.
>>>>
>>>> But, it's still Stan's list, and Stan is still the common
>>>>
>> link for most
>>
>>>> of us. He can't use it as a sales tool anymore, but he still can
>>>>
>> have
>>
>>>> fun with old friends...just as it says in the charter.
>>>>
>>>> I have posted the charter below so all can see what they signed up
>>>>
>> for,
>>
>>>> if they never took the time to read it previously.
>>>>
>>>> In prior years, Michael would post the Charter at this point--he
>>>>
>> wrote
>>
>>>> it, but he seems disinclined to do so, so here it is:
>>>>
>>>> *CHARTER*: *rhodes22*-list at ...
>>>>
>>>>
>> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=0>
>>
>>>> The *rhodes*-list at ...
>>>>
>>>>
>> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=1>
>>
>>>> group will be open to discussion of all
>>>> subjects specifically referring to *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes*
>>>> sailors. The focus of this group includes, but is not limited to:
>>>>
>>>> * Encouraging the understanding and discussion of *Rhodes* sailboats
>>>>
>> or
>>
>>>> *Rhodes* sailors, in the many ways people wish to define it.
>>>>
>>>> * Acting as a source of information for *Rhodes* sailboats or
>>>>
>> *Rhodes*
>>
>>>> sailors worldwide and for people planning to buy/sell/repair/learn
>>>> about *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors.
>>>>
>>>> * Providing a forum for the development and promotion *Rhodes*
>>>>
>> sailboats
>>
>>>> or *Rhodes* sailors' culture, history, traditions and economy.
>>>>
>>>> * Any other subject that might be found at a sailor's bar or the
>>>> Clubhouse Bar, Including *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors'
>>>>
>> travels,
>>
>>>> events, family, jokes, quotations, pets, etc.
>>>>
>>>> * The level of discussion does not have to be fit for a child, but
>>>> some good taste is expected.
>>>>
>>>> Binaries and Formatting: The posting of encoded binaries (e.g.
>>>> pictures, compressed files, etc.) to *rhodes*-list at ...
>>>>
>>>>
>> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=2>
>>
>>>> is not
>>>> allowed, the list server will remove them. Please use mixed case
>>>>
>> when
>>
>>>> posting (Upper and lower case letters), typing words in uppercase
>>>> means you are SHOUTING.
>>>>
>>>> Quoting: Place new material at the top of the post and quote what
>>>>
>> you
>>
>>>> are replying to below. That makes it simple to find out what is
>>>>
>> being
>>
>>>> said. You are encouraged to edit down the quoted material.
>>>>
>>>> HTML mail: Allot of the email programs (Netscape and outlook) that
>>>>
>> can
>>
>>>> send their email with embedded HTML. Embedded HTML can cause some of
>>>> the list members to have trouble reading their mail due to
>>>>
>> "browser
>>
>>>> wars", not reading their mail with a web browser and double
>>>>
>> messages
>>
>>>> in digest mode. Member are encouraged to set their programs to send
>>>> "text" email.
>>>>
>>>> Subject Line: Please set or change the subject line to reflect the
>>>> true subject of the post. for example "Subject: anchors"
>>>>
>> might be
>>
>>>> turned into "Subject: gastank was anchors". If a joke (or
>>>>
>> any
>>
>>>> questionable material) is being posted please indicate it on the
>>>> subject line, for example "Subject: Monday's Humor
>>>>
>> (jokes)"
>>
>>>> Netiquette: Posts to the group are expected to be considerate of
>>>>
>> other
>>
>>>> readers. Personal abuse, flames, and obscenities are *not*
>>>> appreciated; but we are sailors.......
>>>>
>>>> Anonymous email: It is expected that users will provide their name
>>>>
>> in
>>
>>>> the email and will sign same. We like to know who we're talking
>>>>
>> to.
>>
>>>> Social Interaction/Manners: To a certain extent, the interaction is
>>>> about what you would expect in any informal social setting, for
>>>> example, a bar. It is recommended that you get to know people first
>>>> and introduce yourself (about the same social rules that you would
>>>>
>> use
>>
>>>> to meet any new group of people). There is a high level of chitchat
>>>>
>> on
>>
>>>> the list, and what you might think is insulting to a group or region
>>>> might only be people kidding each other after knowing them for
>>>>
>> years.
>>
>>>> As in any bar, the subjects of politics and religion can lead to
>>>> heated augments and bar fights. These might be best avoided.
>>>>
>>>> The need to participate: It is recognized that a group is only
>>>>
>> whoever
>>
>>>> post to it, no more and no less. We can only talk about what people
>>>> post about. You earn respect on the list by postings and trying to
>>>> help each other, you can not demand it. Most sailing topics we have
>>>> talked about already, We chit chat in the mean time waiting to
>>>>
>> answer
>>
>>>> questions or a new subject/story. If you want to know something,
>>>> please post it, the more detail the better. If someone is trying to
>>>> help you please answer their reasonable questions. If you can help
>>>> someone, again post it, Try to repay the knowledge you gained.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>
>>>> Jb wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> why do keep saying this is Stans list?
>>>>> Jb
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
>>>>>
>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:53 PM
>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who made you the Jello Sheriff?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is Stan's list, not yours, and he just told us he
>>>>>>
>> doesn't believe
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>>>> Jello Sheriff is required.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shall I tell you who I think is being a PITA?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think it will improve the list if everyone conforms
>>>>>>
>> to your
>>
>>> views
>>>
>>>>>> of who is using "mean sprite"? Only people who
>>>>>>
>> submit jokes you find
>>
>>>>>> funny can remain on the list? If you don't
>>>>>>
>> laugh--they're out!
>>
>>>>>> Whatever happened to that rule about throwing people off the
>>>>>>
>> list if
>>
>>>>>> they don't own a Rhodes-22?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about syntax rules, and spelling rules? That should be
>>>>>>
>> fun.
>>
>>>>>> Better drop the rule about people on ego trips.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, this charter change must be submitted to the
>>>>>>
>> entire list as
>>
>>>>>> per our charter. Does Rummy still get a vote? How about
>>>>>>
>> Ben? How
>>
>>>>>> about people under your review?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your dear friend,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> michael meltzer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He is the working idea.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Is the problem is not so much the off subject
>>>>>>>
>> post, as long as
>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> are entertaining there is no real issue, funny,
>>>>>>>
>> informative, nice..
>>
>>>>>>> 2) The problem is the people using "mean
>>>>>>>
>> sprite" , pounding on
>>
>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by
>>>>>>>
>> changing the
>>
>>> view
>>>
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the members, being a PITA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To that end.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) in the short: people using "mean
>>>>>>>
>> sprite" , pounding on people,
>>
>>>>>>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by
>>>>>>>
>> changing the
>>
>>> view
>>>
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the members. Can and will be suspended buy me and john
>>>>>>>
>> at our whim,
>>
>>> using
>>>
>>>>>>> current tools. Willing to listen to some group feedback
>>>>>>>
>> but really
>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>>>> right to suspend and remove PITA's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) in the long term both me and john no not have
>>>>>>>
>> the time for
>>
>>> this.
>>>
>>>>>>> Thinking along the lines of a "trusted" group
>>>>>>>
>> of people can numerated
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>>>>> poster for suspend/remove/band that a larger group of
>>>>>>>
>> list members can
>>
>>>>>>> vote
>>>>>>> on(the jury, maybe post #/length of time on the list
>>>>>>>
>> weighted). Web
>>
>>> based
>>>
>>>>>>> system. Me and john then become the "apples board.
>>>>>>>
>> The real question
>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>> cases would be are you a PITA and worth it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) there is a question about a wiki(ben), we tried
>>>>>>>
>> it once but
>>
>>> let's
>>>
>>>>>>> try again, it could have broad applies
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>>>>>>>
>> mailing list go to
>>
>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>
>> list go to
>>
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>
>> go to
>>
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>
>> to
>>
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
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--
Herb Parsons
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