[Rhodes22-list] What constitutes War; and quick shout out.

[TN Rhodey]

Herb, I am not trying to speak for you...I asked you answered. Are you
changing your mind? You stated there is no such thing as an "Official
Declaration on War". so I provided you a link to a copy of same. The
proof was right in front of you. I guess you think it is a fake. You still
say there is no official declaration in spite of clear evidence to the
contrary. If that isn't close minded I don't know what is!

I also provided quote from ex-AG Gonzales explaining the admin's position on
the resolution. Did you read it? I guess you think the quote was a fake or
not true????  I could look further and find quotes direct from Bush or
Cheney but why bother your mind is already made up. The fact is the
Constitution is vague concerning War but we have figured out how to Declare
War. There is plenty of documented evidence to support this fact.

Oh well....you can lead a horse to water.....

Fair Winds, Wally



















On 6/29/08, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
>
> Oh nonono, you don't get to put words in my mouth.
>
> You asked if I disagreed. That was with your definition. You have yet to
> show WHAT the Bush or Cheny thinks, nor do I accept that you are their
> spokesperson.
>
> I disagree with YOUR assertion. I haven't heard anything like that from
> the President or VP.
>
> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > Herb, I agree that the Constitution is some what vague and
> muddy....Section
> > 8 provides Congress the Power to Declare War with little specifics. So I
> > do agree the Constitution is vague. OK? However our current
> administration
> > is maintaining there is a  difference. between Declaration of War and a
> War
> > Resolution.  It is duly noted that you disagree. with Bush ,Cheny and the
> > ex-AG and think the two are one in the same. I actually agree with
> current
> > administration on this one....there is a difference.
> >
> > Just for the record we have  officially Declared War. I will provide you
> an
> > example.  See link for our official declaration of war (WW II) -
> > http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/germwar.shtml
> >
> > I am sure you can find copies of other US Declarations of War. I think we
> > have officially declared war 5 times give or take.   Our War resolutions
> > have subtle and not so subtle differences from Declarations. Often there
> are
> > funding and/or time limits involved.. If you read a couple of Resolutions
> > verses Declarations of War the differences become obvious..
> >
> > Wally
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/29/08, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I disagree. Since there is no formal wording to a declaration of war,
> >> how can one say this is or isn't with any certainty? The waters have
> >> ALWAYS been muddied, whether you acknowledge it or not, which is the
> >> reason that the supreme court had to chime in on the matter a mere 24
> >> years after our country was founded.
> >>
> >> Since there is no "official" declaration of war, how is war declared? By
> >> an overt action? By a response to an action? Are the words "We declare
> >> war" required? Maybe we can do a Steve Martin thing and say "I make war
> >> with thee, I make war with thee, I make war with thee" and then throw
> >> dog poopie on their shoe.
> >>
> >> My point is that certain actions are recognized by most countries as
> >> "acts of war", and those actions are considered, or can be considered,
> >> by most countries as a declaration merely by their actions.
> >>
> >> Incursion into another country is considered an act of war. If that
> >> action is considered a declaration, then one could reasonably say that
> >> when congress approved that action, they were declaring war.
> >>
> >> It would be interesting, again keeping in mind that we have no official
> >> language for "declaring" war, to do a study and find how many of the
> >> congresscritters who voted for the resolution have called the results of
> >> that resolution "the Iraqi war".
> >>
> >> On the other issue, I put saying the post of said poster were
> >> "chickenshit" (though I DID miss that one) to be no more offensive than
> >> said poster referring to the posts of others to be "polluting". Sorry
> >> you missed that point.
> >>
> >>
> >> TN Rhodey wrote:
> >>
> >>> Herb, I don't know why I try. I did not comment further on the name
> >>>
> >> calling
> >>
> >>> because it wasn't your post and like I said it is silly. I thought
> Brad's
> >>> "chickenshit" comments were a little over the top. No biggie I guess we
> >>>
> >> are
> >>
> >>> all adults and no I am not trying to make any changes to the list.
> >>>
> >>> What is muddy? A quick review.....Rummy said we did not declare war. Ed
> >>>
> >> said
> >>
> >>> that the resolution was the same thing. I sided with Rummy, and
> President
> >>> Bush.....a War Resolution is different from a Declaration. Honestly
> from
> >>> your post i can not make out your position. Are you saying they are the
> >>>
> >> same
> >>
> >>> thing? For some reason you are making this more complex than it really
> >>>
> >> is.
> >>
> >>> Care to comment on our formers AG's quote?  Congress did not vote to
> >>>
> >> declare
> >>
> >>> war. Congress did pass War Resolution. No value judgement here...just a
> >>> fact. There is a difference. Do you disagree? If so why?
> >>>
> >>> Because we did not declare war treaties and agreements concerning times
> >>>
> >> of
> >>
> >>> war are not in play.Do you disagree? Why?
> >>>
> >>> It is not like you to disagree with current administration so maybe I
> am
> >>> missing something.
> >>>
> >>> Well I will go back into troll mode. I really do hope some of you are
> >>> sailing.
> >>>
> >>> Wally
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 6/29/08, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Actually, the war powers act muddied the waters. As I stated
> previously,
> >>>> there is nothing that says what is a declaration of war. In days of
> old,
> >>>> and act of war was considered a de-facto resolution. of war. Then
> little
> >>>> skirmishes came up. A blockade here, taking of a vessel there,
> incursion
> >>>> on sovereign ground here and there. These types of actions are what
> >>>> caused the case mentioned to be taken to the SC in the 1800's. Those
> >>>> bringing the case, and cases similar to hit, said "this is war, and
> the
> >>>> constitution clearly says that congress must declare war". The war
> >>>> powers act acted on the SC decision, and actions involving "limited
> >>>> hostility" (most notably Vietnam), by saying that they, Congress, were
> >>>> going to be the ones to decide what constitutes "limited hostility".
> >>>>
> >>>> The problem is that "that side" had already said that these actions
> are
> >>>> war. So now we have Congress voting for "these actions" which were
> >>>> considered war. If/when Congress votes to allow something that they,
> and
> >>>> others, consider to be war, and Congress must vote to DECLARE war,
> well,
> >>>> I think any right thinking person can see how folks will say - you
> just
> >>>> declared war with that vote.
> >>>>
> >>>> Muddy the waters a little more with the idea that most of the
> Presidents
> >>>> since the voting of the war powers act view it as an unconstitutional
> >>>> incursion on the powers of the executive branch, and basically don't
> >>>> acknowledge its validity. Because of that, you will regularly find
> >>>> wording similar to Mr Gonzales.
> >>>>
> >>>> I you are mistaken on the current administration's stance on the
> Geneva
> >>>> convention. The stand is that the enemy combatants are members of
> >>>> terrorist groups, not members of a recognized army, and thus are not
> >>>> party to the GC.
> >>>>
> >>>> I noticed that you asserted I "missed" the name calling, but didn't
> give
> >>>> an example. I don't think any exist, care to enlighten me? There were
> >>>> some pretty silly accusations made, such as calling other posts
> >>>> "polluting"; but I didn't see the name calling.
> >>>>
> >>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Herb, Relax....Please re-read my post. I stated that war resolutions
> >>>>>
> >> are
> >>
> >>>> not
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> the same as a War Declaration. I was agreeing with Rummy's post.
> Please
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> note
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I didn't claim the many past and current "War" Resolutions were
> >>>>>
> >> illegal.
> >>
> >>>> I
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> really don't know how you got that from my post. I claim they are not
> >>>>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>>> same....do you disagree? Former AG Gonzales and the current
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> administration
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> agree with me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To quote Gonazales before Senate Hearing 2/6/06...:GONZALES: "There
> was
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> not
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> a war declaration, either in connection with Al Qaida or in Iraq. It
> >>>>>
> >> was
> >>
> >>>> an
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> authorization to use military force. I only want to clarify that,
> >>>>>
> >> because
> >>
> >>>>> there are implications. Obviously, when you talk about a war
> >>>>>
> >> declaration,
> >>
> >>>>> you're possibly talking about affecting treaties, diplomatic
> relations.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> And
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> so there is a distinction in law and in practice. And we're not
> talking
> >>>>> about a war declaration. This is an authorization only to use
> military
> >>>>> force."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I do have a problem with the US holding people in prisons for years
> >>>>>
> >> with
> >>
> >>>> no
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> trial. I did mention the recent SC ruling...do your own research
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> regarding
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> this ruling. The recent ruling did not involve the legality of the
> >>>>> Resolution and neither did my post. This is the ruling I mentioned. I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> don't
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> think War Resolutions are illegal. Got it?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I do think that (in most cases) if we decide to attack a country we
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> should
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> go "all in" and have Congress vote to Declare War. If past
> perforamance
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> is
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> any indication of future results....well it just seems we have better
> >>>>> results when we declare war verses "resolutions".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regarding childish names I don't doubt you missed them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Been sailing lately? Fair Winds!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> TN Rhodey - Wally
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 6/29/08, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> TN,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Maybe you could be so kind as to reference where the "official"
> >>>>>> declaration of war wording for the US can be located. In the Bas v.
> >>>>>> Tingy case in 1800, the Supreme Court clearly ruled that the
> executive
> >>>>>> branch had the power for limited action (action that would normally
> be
> >>>>>> called "an act of war") without declaration, or approval, of
> Congress.
> >>>>>> Since that ruling, there have been various instrument to attempt to
> >>>>>> quantify just how limited that limited action can be. The war powers
> >>>>>>
> >> act
> >>
> >>>>>> of 1973 was probably the best known of those attempts. No matter if
> >>>>>>
> >> you
> >>
> >>>>>> agree with Congress constitutional "right" to pass such a
> restriction
> >>>>>>
> >> on
> >>
> >>>>>> the executive branch, one thing is clear.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The President acted within the restraint of that act.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In 1992 Congress overwhelmingly passed a joint resolution
> authorizing
> >>>>>> the President's action.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> SC Precedent says this war is allowed, both sides of Congress
> >>>>>>
> >> authorized
> >>
> >>>>>> it, and the President acted.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In what way do you think something was done improperly? Maybe they
> >>>>>> forgot to check with you first?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What childish names were called, I must have missed that one.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I still get list emails but seldom have time to read and even less
> to
> >>>>>>> respond. I will say all is well and we just paid off our home.
> Sweet!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Some of the subjects catch my interest but I delete most withourt
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> reading.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is going to be quite an election. Brad was talking about
> voting
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> for
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Clinton, Bill E supporting a republican! Well I am sure Ed still
> >>>>>>>
> >> thinks
> >>
> >>>>>>> everyone who disagrees with him is a Socialist or commie .....
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> No Ed the resolution is not the same as an actual declaration and
> >>>>>>>
> >> that
> >>
> >>>> is
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> why there is a fuss.  We need to step up and declare war when we
> want
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> to
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> attack a country. However not doing so (declaring war) allows us to
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> ignore
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Geneva Convention and according to current admin the constitution.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Luckily
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the Supreme Court corrected some of this in recent decision.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes Brad it is true that thousands of POWs died in hell hole prison
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> camps
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> during Civil War. This has nothing to do with today's issues but it
> >>>>>>>
> >> is
> >>
> >>>>>>> no excuse for our current behavior. We also allowed slavery back
> then
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> right?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> By the same logic ....should we bring slavery back. No sir we have
> >>>>>>>
> >> come
> >>
> >>>> a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> long way as a country. There is much to like and admire about
> McCain.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> But
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> is hard to believe he has flip flopped so much on the issue of
> >>>>>>>
> >> torture
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> treatment of detainees. Using the argument that they do worse to us
> >>>>>>>
> >> is
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> relevant. I don't use terrorists behavior as our standard. We are
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> better
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> than that.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My thoughts on the election...Do folks really think the Hillary's
> >>>>>>>
> >> women
> >>
> >>>>>>> supporters will not fall in line and vote for Obama? Once they
> figure
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> out
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> that Supreme Court judges and Roe Vs. Wade may be at stake  they
> will
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> vote
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Democrat. The polls all show Obama ahead but there is plenty of
> time
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> for
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> either candidate to implode. Despite what they say both sides are
> in
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> bed
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> with the usual tacky lobbyist groups. Money and politics always go
> >>>>>>>
> >> hand
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> hand.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I tried hard to pick one of the big two but it looks like Bob Barr
> is
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> going
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> to get my vote.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Oh yeah.....Why did you guys jump so hard on Ron? He figured out
> what
> >>>>>>>
> >> I
> >>
> >>>>>>> figured out over a year ago.  Do any of you guys even go sailing
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> anymore?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Calling a guy childish names for deciding not get drawn into silly
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> arguments
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> with people who have already made up their minds....well it just
> >>>>>>>
> >> seems
> >>
> >>>>>>> silly.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Fair winds....I will go back into troll mode.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> TN Rhodey
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 6/23/08, Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Rummy said, "Question? I don't believe that the United States has
> >>>>>>>> officially
> >>>>>>>> declared  war
> >>>>>>>> on Iraq, have we? The Vietnam war wasn't a declared war either, it
> >>>>>>>>
> >> was
> >>
> >>>> a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> "police action". Same holds true with Korea. The last declared war
> >>>>>>>>
> >> was
> >>
> >>>>>>>> WWII.
> >>>>>>>> Correct me if I'm wrong.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I believe that the Congressional authorization against Iraq is
> >>>>>>>>
> >> legally
> >>
> >>>>>>>> considered a declaration of war.  I do not believe that you find
> the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> word
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 'declaration of war' in the subject line, but the language is
> >>>>>>>>
> >> legally
> >>
> >>>>>>>> conclusive.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That is why we still have all the fuss over that resolution.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For what it is worth department.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ed K
> >>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
> >>>>>>>> "One of the challenges we have is to be able to read the fine
> print
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> indoors
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> without any sunlight."  Kai Abelkis
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> View this message in context:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> http://www.nabble.com/What-constitutes-War--reply-to-Captain-Rummy-tp18067074p18067074.html
> >>
> >>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>>>>>>
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> >>
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> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
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