[Rhodes22-list] Mo Gubmint - Politics & Education

[Just bent]

elle,
since I'm sure you mean me, I'm going to respond. All I did was give my
opinion from my experiece attending public schools, you took it personal and
started attacking me. I don't claim to know more about it than someone in
the "biz" for 50 years, that would be redicules.  (did I spell that right?)
Jb



Elle-3 wrote:
> 
> Slim,,
> 
> I'd been trying to stay out of this since there are
> some who seem to know more on this subject than those
> of us in the biz...and things do get a bit heated here
> at times...;^)
> 
> That said, I've been chomping at the bit...so here it
> comes......
> 
> One cannot generalize about this topic....training in
> any profession is essential, altho' dealing with the
> basics may be in the perview of many parents. 
> 
> An educated populace promotes the welfare of the
> nation and its citizens; but we have babies having
> babies...who can say that these folks are capable of
> 'educating' their offspring? Or is what they are
> teaching what is good for our nation?
> 
> I have had in my classes students who were
> homeschooled until high school age, when material
> became too complicated for the home school parents.
> Those students were ...generally...bright,
> inquisitive, respectful. But, so were many of the kids
> who had come through the system. Some of the HS kids
> were rude & demanding...but so were the 'system' kids.
> 
> I believe there are many parents who are quite capable
> of teaching their children ...(isn't what moms did
> before we tossed the kiddies into day care & headed
> into the work force? Thanks, women's lib...) Shouldn't
> there be standards for these students as well as for
> the ones in the system?
> 
> But there is  point at which parents cannot get the
> material across to their students. Not having depth in
> a subject and trying to teach it quickly shows how
> little you really know. To instill understanding, to
> reinforce it and reiterate it, a good teacher needs to
> be able to approach the subject from different
> directions; to look at the difficulties the student is
> having through his eyes, and devise a strategy to help
> him capture the elusive knowledge.
> 
> So what is the worth of a teaching credential?? What
> is the worth of a medical license...or a beautician's
> license. After all, I can cut hair...give me a pair of
> scissors & I'll show you....OH...do it WELL...with
> STYLE....in a way that suits the recipient...I get
> it...that's what the TRAINING is for....
> 
> When you need a surgeon, would you want the one
> trained by the local butcher or the one who
> matriculated at a highly rated university? I mean, I
> can cut up a chicken into parts & a roast into stew
> meat...
> 
> Why do we train our troops...or our police...or hazmat
> crews...or bus drivers...? 
> 
> The point of the teaching credential is not the
> rinky-dink edu courses.....(altho; there were some
> good ones...) the point of the credential is the
> exposure and experience the teacher brings to the
> student....the breadth and depth of knowledge of
> topics other than just the subject matter...THAT's the
> education...
> 
> To be able to react without thinking in an
> emergency...we look for standardization in many
> occupations...following procedures....that's the
> training...and only a highly trained person can pass
> this on.
> 
> 
> Thanks for asking, Slim ;^)
> 
> BTW..when I retired, I donated all 33 yrs of my
> teaching materials to the home school folks of a local
> church, one of whose dads was  a science teacher at my
> HS. They had weekend classes; he taught science on Sat
> AM.
> 
> elle
> 
> 
> --- Steven Alm <stevenalm at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Brad,
>> 
>> Sorry, I didn't mean to be vague, just brief.  What
>> I'm getting at is that
>> in a perfect world, all parents are wonderful and
>> would make great home
>> school teachers for their perfect children. 
>> But........  Or maybe they
>> don't care about whatever--music, sports, all that
>> peripheral stuff--and
>> only care that their precious little ones don't hear
>> anything about that
>> godless thing we call evolution or sex education or
>> a myriad of unsavory
>> topics called the real world.  If their goal is
>> protectionism rather than a
>> complete, rounded education, they should be allowed
>> to sheild their kids
>> from the evils of the outside world.
>> 
>> That said, I've met several home schooled
>> individuals who were articulate,
>> confident and looked you straight in the eye when
>> speaking to you with
>> endless curiosity about the world and with promising
>> futures.  Two in
>> particular are my twin niece and nephew.  She was
>> operating way above her
>> grade level and was getting bored in school because
>> it wasn't a challenge
>> for her.  The boy was operating below his grade
>> level and was frustrated and
>> started developing behavioral problems.  So they
>> were both pulled out of
>> school and taught at home for several years and
>> eventually rejoined their
>> classmates in public school for their graduation. 
>> One parent a PhD and the
>> other a neurosurgeon, their education was solid to
>> say the least.  I'm
>> afraid this is the exception however.
>> 
>> As for certification, less than qualified teachers
>> will produce less than
>> qualified students. The question is whether you can
>> be qualified without
>> being certified.  Perhaps.  Why should a pilot need
>> a licence?  Shouldn't it
>> be OK to let a person fly a jet without all that
>> bull shit instruction?
>> After all, it's as simple as following the
>> checklist, right?  Isn't that
>> just too much gubment getting in your way?  When I
>> was going through my
>> certification there were a few times when I thought
>> it was just busy work
>> but most of it was valuable to me.  I couldn't have
>> gotten through the first
>> week of teaching without it.
>> 
>> I wish Elle would chime in.  After 33 years in the
>> biz I know she has some
>> insight.  C'mon girl!
>> 
>> Slim
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Brad Haslett
>> <flybrad at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Slim,
>> >
>> > I'm guessing as to what you really mean.  But, let
>> me address the "what is
>> > important to me" question first.  The issue at
>> hand in California is who
>> > "owns" the children.  Most (and that includes me)
>> feel that the parents
>> > "own" the RESPONSIBILITY for their children and
>> that includes the right to
>> > oversee their education.  Both of my boys went to
>> private schools where
>> > the
>> > teachers didn't have 'teaching credentials' but
>> they knew their subject
>> > matter and knew how to teach.  If they didn't, I
>> had two choices, pull
>> > them
>> > out or bitch.  I did neither because 1 - they had
>> incredible instructors,
>> > and 2 - the school would have told me to "go pound
>> sand" if I bitched.
>> >  The
>> > concept of everyone having access to a public
>> education is a wonderful
>> > thing
>> > and I support it.  The disconnect is that many
>> people feel they have no
>> > control over the process and they opt out.  That
>> choice should be
>> > protected.
>> >
>> > Just so you don't misunderstand my point, let me
>> state it clearly.  Some
>> > folks are naturally gifted teachers and some folks
>> know a given area of
>> > science or art very well.  When you find an
>> individual that can combine
>> > their knowledge of a given subject and have a
>> natural ability to teach,
>> > it's
>> > a wonderful thing.  Having a 'credential' means
>> you have the patience to
>> > listen to X hours of bullshit theory and nothing
>> else!
>> >
>> > BTW, I take as much pride in teaching my art and
>> science as I do
>> > practicing
>> > it - $100 says you do too.
>> >
>> > Brad
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Steven Alm
>> <stevenalm at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >  "I just don't get it!  What is so
>> > > special about a teaching credential?"
>> > >
>> > > Well, for one thing, there is only one in a
>> million moms out there that
>> > > could even begin to teach five little girls to
>> sing the National Anthem
>> > in
>> > > part harmony like we just heard.
>> > > It's all about what's important to you.
>> > >
>> > > Slim
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Just bent
>> <j.bulfer at jbtek.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >  I just don't get it!  What is so
>> > > > special about a teaching credential?
>> > > >
>> > > > Brad,
>> > > > carefull, you'll have the wrath of the
>> teachers union come down on
>> > you.
>> > > > For every student that is home school, the
>> district loses money.
>> > > > My guess is it's a lobbiest for the public
>> school system who is
>> > pushing
>> > > > this.
>> > > > remember, follow the money and you will find
>> the reason.
>> > > > Jb
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Home schooling is not my thing but a good
>> number of my co-workers
>> > home
>> > > > > school.  Some do it for religious reasons
>> but most do it because
>> > > they're
>> > > > > fed
>> > > > > up with the public school monopoly and don't
>> want to spend $10,000+
>> > > per
>> > > > > child for private schools.  Most of their
>> kids have performed well
>> > on
>> > > > > standardized tests and get into good
>> colleges. That won't be a
>> > choice
>> > > if
>> > > > > California gets their way.  What is it that
>> makes people want a
>> > > > government
>> > > > > that controls every aspect of their lives? 
>> I just don't get it!
>> >  What
>> > > > is
>> > > > > so
>> > > > > special about a teaching credential?  Most
>> education textbooks are
>> > > pure
>> > > > > BS.
>> > > > > Note that the LA Times goes heavy into the
>> religion aspect.  That's
>> > > not
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > primary issue with most of the people I know
>> who home school.  Brad
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ---------------------------------
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Ruling seen as a threat to many
>> home-schooling families State
>> > > appellate
>> > > > > court says those who teach children in
>> private must have a
>> > credential.
>> > > > > By Seema Mehta and Mitchell Landsberg
>> > > > > Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
>> > > > >
>> > > > > March 6, 2008
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Parents who lack teaching credentials cannot
>> educate their children
>> > at
>> > > > > home,
>> > > > > according to a state appellate court ruling
>> that is sending waves of
>> > > > fear
>> > > > > through California's home schooling
>> families.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Advocates for the families vowed to appeal
>> the decision to the state
>> > > > > Supreme
>> > > > > Court. Enforcement until then appears
>> unlikely, but if the ruling
>> > > > stands,
>> > > > > home-schooling supporters say California
>> will have the most
>> > regressive
>> > > > law
>> > > > > in the nation.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "This decision is a direct hit against every
>> home schooler in
>> > > > California,"
>> > > > > said Brad Dacus, president of the Pacific
>> Justice Institute, which
>> > > > > represents the Sunland Christian School,
>> which specializes in
>> > > religious
>> > > > > home
>> > > > > schooling. "If the state Supreme Court does
>> not reverse this . . .
>> > > there
>> > > > > will be nothing to prevent home-school witch
>> hunts from being
>> > > > implemented
>> > > > > in
>> > > > > every corner of the state of California."
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The institute estimates there are as many as
>> 166,000 California
>> > > students
>> > > > > who
>> > > > > are home schooled. State Department of
>> Education officials say there
>> > > is
>> > > > no
>> > > > > way to know the true number.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Unlike at least 30 other states, home
>> schooling is not specifically
>> > > > > addressed in California law. Under the state
>> education code,
>> > students
>> > > > must
>> > > > > be enrolled in a public or private school,
>> or can be taught at home
>> > by
>> > > a
>> > > > > credentialed tutor.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The California Department of Education
>> currently allows home
>> > schooling
>> > > > as
>> > > > > long as parents file paperwork with the
>> state establishing
>> > themselves
>> > > as
>> > > > > small private schools, hire credentialed
>> tutors or enroll their
>> > > children
>> > > > > in
>> > > > > independent study programs run by charter or
>> private schools or
>> > public
>> > > > > school districts while still teaching at
>> home.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > California does little to enforce those
>> provisions and insists it is
>> > > the
>> > > > > local school districts' responsibility. In
>> addition, state education
>> > > > > officials say some parents home school their
>> children without the
>> > > > > knowledge
>> > > > > of any entity.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Home schoolers and government officials have
>> largely accepted this
>> > > murky
>> > > > > arrangement.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "This works so well, I don't see any reason
>> to change it," said J.
>> > > > Michael
>> > > > > Smith, president of the Virginia-based Home
>> School Legal Defense
>> > Assn.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The appellate court ruling stems from a case
>> involving Lynwood
>> > parents
>> > > > > Phillip and Mary Long, who were repeatedly
>> referred to the Los
>> > Angeles
>> > > > > County Department of Children and Family
>> Services over various
>> > > > > allegations,
>> > > > > including claims of physical abuse,
>> involving some of their eight
>> > > > > children.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > All of the children are currently or had
>> been enrolled in Sunland
>> > > > > Christian
>> > > > > School, where they would occasionally take
>> tests, but were educated
>> > in
>> > > > > their
>> > > > > home by their mother, Phillip Long said.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > A lawyer appointed to represent two of the
>> Long's young children
>> > > > requested
>> > > > > that the court require them to physically
>> attend a public or private
>> > > > > school
>> > > > > where adults could monitor their well-being.
>> A trial court
>> > disagreed,
>> > > > but
>> > > > > the children's lawyer appealed to the 2nd
>> District Court of Appeal,
>> > > > which
>> > > > > has jurisdiction over Los Angeles, Ventura,
>> Santa Barbara and San
>> > Luis
>> > > > > Obispo counties.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The appellate panel ruled that Sunland
>> officials' occasional
>> > > monitoring
>> > > > of
>> > > > > the Longs' home schooling -- with the
>> children taking some tests at
>> > > the
>> > > > > school -- is insufficient to qualify as
>> being enrolled in a private
>> > > > > school.
>> > > > > Since Mary Long does not have a teaching
>> credential, the family is
>> > > > > violating
>> > > > > state laws, the ruling said.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "Parents do not have a constitutional right
>> to home school their
>> > > > > children,"
>> > > > > wrote Justice H. Walter Croskey in a Feb. 28
>> opinion signed by the
>> > two
>> > > > > other
>> > > > > members of the district court. "Parents who
>> fail to [comply with
>> > > school
>> > > > > enrollment laws] may be subject to a
>> criminal complaint against
>> > them,
>> > > > > found
>> > > > > guilty of an infraction, and subject to
>> imposition of fines or an
>> > > order
>> > > > to
>> > > > > complete a parent education and counseling
>> program."
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Phillip Long said he believes the ruling
>> stems from hostility
>> > against
>> > > > > Christians and vowed to appeal to the state
>> Supreme Court.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "I have sincerely held religious beliefs,"
>> he said. "Public schools
>> > > > > conflict
>> > > > > with that. I have to go with what my
>> conscience requires me."
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Public schools teach such topics as
>> evolution, which Long said he
>> > > > doesn't
>> > > > > believe in. He said his wife spends six
>> hours each day teaching
>> > their
>> > > > > children reading, writing, math, science,
>> health, physical
>> > education,
>> > > > > Bible
>> > > > > and social studies. Court papers say Mary
>> Long's education ended at
>> > > 11th
>> > > > > grade.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > It's unclear if the ruling will be enforced,
>> given the likely
>> > appeals.
>> > > > > Typically, these rulings take effect 30 days
>> after they are issued.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Other organizations that plan to get
>> involved include the Pacific
>> > > > Justice
>> > > > > Institute, Home School Legal Defense Assn.
>> and the Home School Assn.
>> > > of
>> > > > > California.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Meanwhile, state Department of Education's
>> attorneys are reviewing
>> > the
>> > > > > ruling.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Teachers union officials will also be
>> closely monitoring the appeal.
>> > > A.J
>> > > > .
>> > > > > Duffy, president of United Teachers Los
>> Angeles, said he agrees with
>> > > the
>> > > > > ruling.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "What's best for a child is to be taught by
>> a credentialed teacher,"
>> > > he
>> > > > > said.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > While many educators and officials remained
>> unfamiliar with the
>> > ruling
>> > > > > Tuesday, news about it has been sweeping
>> websites and blogs devoted
>> > to
>> > > > > home
>> > > > > schooling. Organizations have been getting
>> tense phone calls from
>> > > > parents
>> > > > > worried that they will be targeted.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Families who home school includethose whose
>> religious beliefs
>> > conflict
>> > > > > with
>> > > > > public schools and those whose children are
>> in the entertainment
>> > > > industry
>> > > > > or
>> > > > > have other time-consuming activities that
>> require them to study at
>> > an
>> > > > > individualized pace.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Glenn and Kathleen, a Sacramento-area couple
>> who requested that
>> > their
>> > > > last
>> > > > > name not be used for fear of prosecution,
>> home school their
>> > 9-year-old
>> > > > son
>> > > > > Hunter because their Christian beliefs would
>> be contradicted in a
>> > > public
>> > > > > school setting, Glenn said. He is troubled
>> by the idea that his son
>> > > > would
>> > > > > be
>> > > > > exposed to teachings about evolution,
>> homosexuality, same-sex
>> > marriage
>> > > > and
>> > > > > sex education .
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "I want to have control over what goes in my
>> son's head, not what's
>> > > put
>> > > > in
>> > > > > there by people who might be on the far left
>> who have their own
>> > ideas
>> > > > > about
>> > > > > indoctrinating kids," he said.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If the ruling takes effect, Glenn vowed to
>> move his family out of
>> > > state.
>> > > > > "If
>> > > > > I can't home school my son in California,
>> we're going to have to end
>> > > up
>> > > > > leaving California. That's how important it
>> is to me."
>> > > > >
>> > > > > seema.mehta at latimes.com
>> > > > >
>> __________________________________________________
>> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
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>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
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> 
> 
> We can't change the angle of the wind....but we can adjust our sails.
> 
>  1992 Rhodes 22   Recyc '06  "WaterMusic"   (Lady in Red)
> 
> 
>      
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