[Rhodes22-list] Mo Gubmint - Politics & Education

[Chris Geankoplis]

Thanks for sharing the life on TDY.  We seldom lived on base and almost
always lived way out in the country so the kids at the school weren't used
to seeeing anyone but their 2nd cousins.  But you know all being said and
done I think being raised in a military family was a good thing for us kids,
it could have been just being raised by a military man (though he was a real
maverickk).

The system can and does create those "professors" though you must have
understoood the math to have done so well with the concepts.  Some people
like that guy just quit caring.  Down with the bastards!

Chris
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mo Gubmint - Politics & Education


> It's funny you should ask about being "beaten"; I had very mixed results
> on that end. Sometimes, we'd move to a new school, and for whatever
> reason, I'd be a pariah, and have issues like that. Other times, the
> "popular kids" would take a liking to me, and I'd be on easy street. I
> never really figured thehows and whys of it, but I DID figure out that
> if things were bad, all I had to do was wait it out and there would be a
> change down the road. Gave me a "different" type of outlook on hard times.
>
> The few "introductary fights" I did get into were really much of my own
> making. For whatever reason, seemed kids thought the name "Herbie" was
> funny. A few times I took offense at thei "view", and got into fights.
> Eventually I learned that the reason they made fun of it was that it WAS
> a funny name, that it really had nothing to do with me. Made life in the
> changing lane a lot easier.
>
> The point I was trying to make about the Mrs Whites and The Professors
> of the world is that the current system turns Mrs Whites into The
> Professors, not the other way around.
>
> Chris Geankoplis wrote:
> > Herb,
> >     Great story, I empathize as I went to 16 different schools in 3
> > different countries (some on the local countrie's economy not just
> > military).  Dit you get "beatten" into each new school, God I hated that
> > ritual.
> >
> >                     But you are asking the Mrs. Whites of the stystem to
not
> > only work at a very modest wage but to also work for nothing to help a
needy
> > kid.  And they will, they will far more often work for nothing (all
those
> > hours after 3:30) than leave when they are no longer being paid..  And
yet
> > there are those who advocate that we should make their profession even
less
> > stabel, secure, and rewarding and all the while decry why there aren't
more
> > Mrs. Whites.  There are 5 to 10 percent of employees in my district that
are
> > marginal and the system does squeeze most of them out eventually.  We
could
> > get rid of them faster but there would be lots of colateral damage and
I'd
> > rather have acouple of "Professors" around in  order to keep those Mrs.
> > Whites.
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 11:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mo Gubmint - Politics & Education
> >
> >
> >
> >> Sorry Elle if you disagree, but I'm not speaking hypothetically. I was
> >> worked for a school district. What I saw is what I saw.
> >>
> >> I've no doubt you were an excellent educator. You haven't said how long
> >> ago you retired, but I gather from your last sentence it wasn't recent.
> >> The stuff I speak of is the more recent version of "teachers", though I
> >> have to say the trend began many years ago (probably about the time of
> >> the growth of the teachers' unions, but that's just a passing thought
to
> >> me), and has grown since.
> >>
> >> I "saw" something when I was a teenager, but never really thought about
> >> it until I was older, and working with kids myself.
> >>
> >> When I was a sophomore in HS (14 at the time, I started young), I
> >> remember my geometry class. The teacher was a PHD, highly educated, and
> >> we jokingly called him "The Professor". My second semester, I made my
> >> first failing grade ever in my life. First semester I aced every test,
> >> and passed the class with a 98. Our final exam in the class counted 50%
> >> of the grade (it wasn't only because of his education that he gained
the
> >> nickname). I took the test my second semester, sat down to begin, and
> >> realized I had to go to the bathroom. I was a shy, geeky, insecure kid,
> >> and was scared to death to approach The Professor and ask to be excused
> >> for a few minutes. I tried to ignore it. I wiggled a lot. I couldn't
> >> concentrate enough to read the questions. I finally figured I'd better
> >> do something, or I'd REALLY be embarrassed, so I scribbled some things
> >> in some of the blanks, turned it in, and ran to the bathroom. I'll
never
> >> figure out how I got a 22% on it, but understood math well enough to
> >> figure out how I ended up with a 60% for the semester; which, of
course,
> >> was my final grade and an F. I made a 100% in the class the following
> >>
> > year.
> >
> >> My junior year, I had Mrs. White for English. She asked me to stay
after
> >> class one day and speak to her. I thought I was in big trouble, though
I
> >> couldn't figure out for what (see note above about shy, geeky,
> >> insecure...). I stayed after class, and she asked me if I REALLY didn't
> >> know what an adverb was. I told her "no, I don't". She asked (without
> >> sarcasm, she seemed to genuinely be ASKING) how I made it through 10
> >> years of school without learning what an adverb was. I explained to her
> >> that this school was my 23rd school (we moved that following summer,
and
> >> graduated from my 24th), and it seemed as if each time we moved during
> >> HS, we'd leave a school that was just finishing up with literature in
> >> Englash class, preparing to start grammer; going to a school that was
> >> finishing grammer, and going into lit. I guessed that adverbs just fell
> >> through the cracks. She asked me if I knew what an adjective was, and I
> >> told her yes. She then said an adverb is to a verb what an adjective
was
> >> to a noun. I said I understood. She asked me to give an example of
each.
> >> I did. The whole incident took less time than typing it here now did.
> >> However, Mrs. White then asked me if I was willing to stay after school
> >> for 3-6 weeks to get caught up to where I should be as a junior. I
> >> shrugged, and said sure. In reality, we met after class for one week,
> >> and before class the following week, and after 2 weeks she declared me
> >> "caught up".
> >>
> >> Years later, when I was working as a house-parent, I was explaining to
> >> my "then wife" why I was treating two boys differently when they had
> >> committed the same "offense" together (it all had to do with attitude),
> >> when that memory popped into my head. As an adult, I thought about
> >> something that never had occurred to me as a kid.
> >>
> >> How in the world did an adult "teacher" look at a 22% on a final exam
> >> from a kid who had made a 96 in class the year before, and was
currently
> >> making a 98%, and not ask himself if maybe something here deserved a
> >> closer look. In other words, why was The Professor, PHD in mathematical
> >> sciences though he was, so much less the "educator" than Mrs. White?
> >>
> >> I don't know, because I wasn't that observant as a 14 year old kid, but
> >> I suspect that the caring nature was ground out of him by the system
> >> years before (assuming it was there to begin with); and now he was just
> >> putting in the hours, doing the proper work, grading the tests and
> >> papers honestly, but not really caring beyond doing what had to be
done.
> >>
> >> That's what I'm talking about.
> >>
> >> I'm not blaming those that are in that position. But the system is
> >> broken. There's little doubt in my mind that the straws that broke the
> >> system's back came from all sides, but there's also little doubt that
it
> >> truly is broken.
> >>
> >>
> >> elle wrote:
> >>
> >>> Herb,
> >>>
> >>> I also cannot disagree with much of what you have
> >>> said...but remember these types of people are present
> >>> in all professions..not jsut teaching...(BTW...did you
> >>> ever go to school? Someone taught you something..;^))
> >>>
> >>> But I MUST strongly disagree with this:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> and waiting for retirement is easier than starting
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> over in something else.
> >>>
> >>> You have GOT to be JOKING.. Sticking your fingers one
> >>> at a time into a meat grinder & making sausage would
> >>> be an easier & less stressful way of filling your days
> >>> than in 'waiting for retirement.'
> >>>
> >>> I wish I could say that in all those years I was ever
> >>> 'waiting' for anything...I could never slow down long
> >>> enuf for it to catch up with me....(and many many of
> >>> my colleagues.). (although I wouldn't give you a
> >>> tinker's dam for some of the newer teachers comng into
> >>> the HS...)
> >>>
> >>> elle
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> In a perfect world, all teachers would be qualified,
> >>>> interested in
> >>>> teaching their students, with the needs of the
> >>>> children in their charge
> >>>> placed on the highest priority. Instead, we have the
> >>>> real world, where a
> >>>> few (very few) teachers are exactly like that.
> >>>> Others insert their
> >>>> personal opinions and teach them as "fact". Some are
> >>>> there because they
> >>>> couldn't decide on a major in college, and education
> >>>> was an easy route.
> >>>> Some are there because they aspire to become
> >>>> administrators, and
> >>>> teaching our children is simply part of the "dues
> >>>> you have to pay" to
> >>>> get there. Some are even there because being a
> >>>> "teacher" gives them
> >>>> prime fodder for the deviant sexual desires. Most
> >>>> though, I believe, are
> >>>> there because they've gotten tenure, and waiting for
> >>>> retirement is
> >>>> easier than starting over in something else.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm afraid that your impression of "home schooled"
> >>>> children is probably
> >>>> skewed. Or maybe it's mine that's skewed. I do have
> >>>> to admit my
> >>>> experience has only been in Texas, Oklahoma,
> >>>> Louisiana, Arkansas, and
> >>>> Alaska. Very few parents that home school for any
> >>>> length of time go it
> >>>> alone. They join organizations, formal and informal,
> >>>> that provide them
> >>>> with lesson plans, teaching materials, etc. Some
> >>>> even hook them up with
> >>>> the local public systems, or other private systems,
> >>>> to do the group
> >>>> stuff - music, sports, all that peripheral stuff.
> >>>>
> >>>> And, though I doubt your skewd cynical outlook would
> >>>> allow for this,
> >>>> many of those that worry about "godless" things in
> >>>> the public school
> >>>> system may have very good reasons for the view,
> >>>> "real world" or not.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Steven Alm wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Brad,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to be vague, just brief.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> What I'm getting at is that
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> in a perfect world, all parents are wonderful and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> would make great home
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> school teachers for their perfect children.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> But........  Or maybe they
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> don't care about whatever--music, sports, all that
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> peripheral stuff--and
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> only care that their precious little ones don't
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> hear anything about that
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> godless thing we call evolution or sex education
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> or a myriad of unsavory
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> topics called the real world.  If their goal is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> protectionism rather than a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> complete, rounded education, they should be
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> allowed to sheild their kids
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> from the evils of the outside world.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That said, I've met several home schooled
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> individuals who were articulate,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> confident and looked you straight in the eye when
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> speaking to you with
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> endless curiosity about the world and with
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> promising futures.  Two in
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> particular are my twin niece and nephew.  She was
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> operating way above her
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> grade level and was getting bored in school
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> because it wasn't a challenge
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> for her.  The boy was operating below his grade
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> level and was frustrated and
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> started developing behavioral problems.  So they
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> were both pulled out of
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> school and taught at home for several years and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> eventually rejoined their
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> classmates in public school for their graduation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> One parent a PhD and the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> other a neurosurgeon, their education was solid to
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> say the least.  I'm
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> afraid this is the exception however.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for certification, less than qualified teachers
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> will produce less than
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> qualified students. The question is whether you
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> can be qualified without
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> being certified.  Perhaps.  Why should a pilot
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> need a licence?  Shouldn't it
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> be OK to let a person fly a jet without all that
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> bull shit instruction?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> After all, it's as simple as following the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> checklist, right?  Isn't that
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> just too much gubment getting in your way?  When I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> was going through my
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> certification there were a few times when I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> thought it was just busy work
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> but most of it was valuable to me.  I couldn't
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> have gotten through the first
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> week of teaching without it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I wish Elle would chime in.  After 33 years in the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> biz I know she has some
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> insight.  C'mon girl!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Slim
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Brad Haslett
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <flybrad at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Slim,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm guessing as to what you really mean.  But,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> let me address the "what is
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> important to me" question first.  The issue at
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> hand in California is who
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> "owns" the children.  Most (and that includes me)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> feel that the parents
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> "own" the RESPONSIBILITY for their children and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> that includes the right to
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> oversee their education.  Both of my boys went to
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> private schools where
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> teachers didn't have 'teaching credentials' but
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> they knew their subject
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> matter and knew how to teach.  If they didn't, I
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> had two choices, pull
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> them
> >>>>>> out or bitch.  I did neither because 1 - they had
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> incredible instructors,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> and 2 - the school would have told me to "go
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> pound sand" if I bitched.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>  The
> >>>>>> concept of everyone having access to a public
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> education is a wonderful
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> thing
> >>>>>> and I support it.  The disconnect is that many
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> people feel they have no
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> control over the process and they opt out.  That
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> choice should be
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> protected.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just so you don't misunderstand my point, let me
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> state it clearly.  Some
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> folks are naturally gifted teachers and some
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> folks know a given area of
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> science or art very well.  When you find an
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> individual that can combine
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> their knowledge of a given subject and have a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> natural ability to teach,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> it's
> >>>>>> a wonderful thing.  Having a 'credential' means
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> you have the patience to
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> listen to X hours of bullshit theory and nothing
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> else!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> BTW, I take as much pride in teaching my art and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> science as I do
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> practicing
> >>>>>> it - $100 says you do too.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brad
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Steven Alm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> <stevenalm at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>  "I just don't get it!  What is so
> >>>>>>> special about a teaching credential?"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, for one thing, there is only one in a
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> million moms out there that
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> could even begin to teach five little girls to
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> sing the National Anthem
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> part harmony like we just heard.
> >>>>>>> It's all about what's important to you.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Slim
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Just bent
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> <j.bulfer at jbtek.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>  I just don't get it!  What is so
> >>>>>>>> special about a teaching credential?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Brad,
> >>>>>>>> carefull, you'll have the wrath of the teachers
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> union come down on
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For every student that is home school, the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> district loses money.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> My guess is it's a lobbiest for the public
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> school system who is
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> pushing
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>> remember, follow the money and you will find
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> the reason.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> Jb
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Home schooling is not my thing but a good
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> number of my co-workers
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> home
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> school.  Some do it for religious reasons but
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> most do it because
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> they're
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> fed
> >>>>>>>>> up with the public school monopoly and don't
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> want to spend $10,000+
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> per
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> child for private schools.  Most of their kids
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> have performed well
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> on
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> standardized tests and get into good colleges.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> That won't be a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> choice
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> California gets their way.  What is it that
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> makes people want a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> government
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> that controls every aspect of their lives?  I
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> just don't get it!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>  What
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> so
> >>>>>>>>> special about a teaching credential?  Most
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> education textbooks are
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> pure
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> BS.
> >>>>>>>>> Note that the LA Times goes heavy into the
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> religion aspect.  That's
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> primary issue with most of the people I know
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> who home school.  Brad
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ruling seen as a threat to many home-schooling
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> families State
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> appellate
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> court says those who teach children in private
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> must have a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> credential.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> By Seema Mehta and Mitchell Landsberg
> >>>>>>>>> Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> March 6, 2008
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Parents who lack teaching credentials cannot
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> educate their children
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> at
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> home,
> >>>>>>>>> according to a state appellate court ruling
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> that is sending waves of
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> fear
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> through California's home schooling families.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Advocates for the families vowed to appeal the
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> decision to the state
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Supreme
> >>>>>>>>> Court. Enforcement until then appears
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> unlikely, but if the ruling
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> stands,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> home-schooling supporters say California will
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> have the most
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> regressive
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> law
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> in the nation.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "This decision is a direct hit against every
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> home schooler in
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> California,"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> said Brad Dacus, president of the Pacific
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> Justice Institute, which
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> represents the Sunland Christian School, which
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> specializes in
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> religious
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> home
> >>>>>>>>> schooling. "If the state Supreme Court does
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> not reverse this . . .
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> there
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> will be nothing to prevent home-school witch
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> hunts from being
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> implemented
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> every corner of the state of California."
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The institute estimates there are as many as
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> 166,000 California
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> students
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>>>> are home schooled. State Department of
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> Education officials say there
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> way to know the true number.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Unlike at least 30 other states, home
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> schooling is not specifically
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> addressed in California law. Under the state
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> education code,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> students
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> must
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> be enrolled in a public or private school, or
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> can be taught at home
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> by
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> credentialed tutor.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The California Department of Education
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> currently allows home
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> schooling
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> long as parents file paperwork with the state
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> establishing
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> themselves
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> small private schools, hire credentialed
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> tutors or enroll their
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> children
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> independent study programs run by charter or
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> private schools or
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> public
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> school districts while still teaching at home.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> California does little to enforce those
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> provisions and insists it is
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> local school districts' responsibility. In
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> addition, state education
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> officials say some parents home school their
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> children without the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> knowledge
> >>>>>>>>> of any entity.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Home schoolers and government officials have
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> largely accepted this
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> murky
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> arrangement.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "This works so well, I don't see any reason to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> change it," said J.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Smith, president of the Virginia-based Home
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> School Legal Defense
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Assn.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The appellate court ruling stems from a case
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> involving Lynwood
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> parents
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Phillip and Mary Long, who were repeatedly
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> referred to the Los
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Angeles
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> County Department of Children and Family
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> Services over various
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> allegations,
> >>>>>>>>> including claims of physical abuse, involving
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> some of their eight
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> children.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> All of the children are currently or had been
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> enrolled in Sunland
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Christian
> >>>>>>>>> School, where they would occasionally take
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> tests, but were educated
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>> home by their mother, Phillip Long said.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> A lawyer appointed to represent two of the
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> Long's young children
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> requested
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> that the court require them to physically
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> attend a public or private
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> school
> >>>>>>>>> where adults could monitor their well-being. A
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> trial court
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> disagreed,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> the children's lawyer appealed to the 2nd
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> District Court of Appeal,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> has jurisdiction over Los Angeles, Ventura,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> Santa Barbara and San
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Luis
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Obispo counties.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The appellate panel ruled that Sunland
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> officials' occasional
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> monitoring
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> the Longs' home schooling -- with the children
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> taking some tests at
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> school -- is insufficient to qualify as being
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> enrolled in a private
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> school.
> >>>>>>>>> Since Mary Long does not have a teaching
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> credential, the family is
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> violating
> >>>>>>>>> state laws, the ruling said.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "Parents do not have a constitutional right to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> home school their
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> children,"
> >>>>>>>>> wrote Justice H. Walter Croskey in a Feb. 28
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> opinion signed by the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> two
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>>>> members of the district court. "Parents who
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> fail to [comply with
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> school
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> enrollment laws] may be subject to a criminal
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> complaint against
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> them,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> found
> >>>>>>>>> guilty of an infraction, and subject to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> imposition of fines or an
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> order
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> complete a parent education and counseling
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> program."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Phillip Long said he believes the ruling stems
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> from hostility
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> against
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Christians and vowed to appeal to the state
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> Supreme Court.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "I have sincerely held religious beliefs," he
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> said. "Public schools
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> conflict
> >>>>>>>>> with that. I have to go with what my
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> conscience requires me."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Public schools teach such topics as evolution,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> which Long said he
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> believe in. He said his wife spends six hours
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> each day teaching
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> their
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> children reading, writing, math, science,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> health, physical
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> education,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Bible
> >>>>>>>>> and social studies. Court papers say Mary
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> Long's education ended at
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 11th
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> grade.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It's unclear if the ruling will be enforced,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> given the likely
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> appeals.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Typically, these rulings take effect 30 days
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> after they are issued.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Other organizations that plan to get involved
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> include the Pacific
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Justice
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Institute, Home School Legal Defense Assn. and
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> the Home School Assn.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> California.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, state Department of Education's
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> attorneys are reviewing
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ruling.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Teachers union officials will also be closely
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> monitoring the appeal.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A.J
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> .
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Duffy, president of United Teachers Los
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> Angeles, said he agrees with
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ruling.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "What's best for a child is to be taught by a
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> credentialed teacher,"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> he
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> said.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> While many educators and officials remained
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> unfamiliar with the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> ruling
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tuesday, news about it has been sweeping
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> websites and blogs devoted
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> home
> >>>>>>>>> schooling. Organizations have been getting
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> tense phone calls from
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> parents
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> worried that they will be targeted.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Families who home school includethose whose
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> religious beliefs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> conflict
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>> public schools and those whose children are in
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> the entertainment
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> industry
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>> have other time-consuming activities that
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> require them to study at
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> an
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> individualized pace.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Glenn and Kathleen, a Sacramento-area couple
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> who requested that
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> their
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> last
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> name not be used for fear of prosecution, home
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> school their
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> 9-year-old
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> son
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hunter because their Christian beliefs would
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> be contradicted in a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> public
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> school setting, Glenn said. He is troubled by
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> the idea that his son
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>> exposed to teachings about evolution,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> homosexuality, same-sex
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> marriage
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> sex education .
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "I want to have control over what goes in my
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> son's head, not what's
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> put
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> there by people who might be on the far left
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> who have their own
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> ideas
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>> indoctrinating kids," he said.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If the ruling takes effect, Glenn vowed to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> move his family out of
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> state.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "If
> >>>>>>>>> I can't home school my son in California,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> we're going to have to end
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> up
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> leaving California. That's how important it is
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> to me."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> seema.mehta at latimes.com
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> View this message in context:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >
http://www.nabble.com/Mo-Gubmint---Politics---Education-tp15887644p15888952.html
> >
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> Nabble.com.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> -- 
> >>>> Herb Parsons
> >>>> S/V O'Jure - O'Day 25
> >>>> S/V Reve de Pappa - Coronado 35
> >>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> We can't change the angle of the wind....but we can adjust our sails.
> >>>
> >>>  1992 Rhodes 22   Recyc '06  "WaterMusic"   (Lady in Red)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
> > ________
> >
> >>> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> >>> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
> >>>
> > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
> >
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> -- 
> >> Herb Parsons
> >> S/V O'Jure - O'Day 25
> >> S/V Reve de Pappa - Coronado 35
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> -- 
> Herb Parsons
> S/V O'Jure - O'Day 25
> S/V Reve de Pappa - Coronado 35
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list