[Rhodes22-list] Political - big Al delete - Brads economic question - However Big Al have considered that you opinions might be necessary to keep the young'uns in reality?

Fri May 2 17:20:33 EDT 2008

Slim,

Congratulations, the fact that you have the discipline to save puts you in
the top 80th percentile.  Fan (same employer) and I are limited  to Vanguard
for our 401k's and a limited Vanguard menu at that. I split my money evenly
between three Vanguard funds, the 500 index fund (basically a no-load dart
board), Primecap, and the International Value fund (a good hedge against a
weak dollar).  They've all been up and down vis-a-vis each other over the
years, but are amazingly close  in the long run and  with happy outcomes.
Fan has her own money all over the place, including some with two different
Oakmark funds.  Oakmark has a habit of making year-end trades to juice-up
their returns and it always results in us having to pay capital gains (not
an issue for you since yours is pre-tax).  We're taking a hard look at
moving to something different. Cora's 529 plan is at Fidelity and given a
choice, I wish our 401k's were there instead of Vanguard.  I like Fidelity's
range of products better. I manage some money that we hold in trust for my
sister-in-law that we put put in TRowe-Price tax-free muni's  for tax
purposes that through sheer dumb luck have done well.  That's not a good
option for you and I since we're talking about tax free money anyway. You
and I are the same age and if you look at all the financial 'guru's' advice,
we should be moving more into bonds and out of stocks.  I think that's
bunk.  I "advise" a couple of people in their 60's on their 401k's and have
them almost 100% in stocks, same as us.  Unless you are under  five years
away from retiring, you'll get a much better return on equities and have
enough time to recover from a downturn in the market.  Like you, I don't
daytrade.  Our investments are on auto-pilot and have performed very well.
You've already learned what you need to know about annuities.  Consider
getting aggressive in international, put a third on the blue chip
'dartboard' and let it ride, and stay away from anything with "small cap" or
"growth" in the name.  I know that's not very creative but I'll put my
record up against anyones over the last two decades. When someone tells you
they've got the inside scoop to a better deal, say "that's nice" and run,
don't walk away.

Brad

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Steven Alm <stevenalm at gmail.com> wrote:

> OK all you financial experts, how about a little advice?  What are you
> investing in?
>
> Since I'm self-employed I can buy anything I want rather than the
> limitations placed upon most employees' 401k plans.  I've been funding my
> SEP (self-employed) IRA for about twenty years and I started a ROTH about
> 15
> years ago.  I have about 80% in mutual funds from Vanguard and about 20%
> in
> money markets from Oakmark.  I also have a little in an ING annuity that's
> turned out to be a real dog--I'm very sorry I got talked into that one.  I
> like products that I can have for a long run so I don't have to fiddle
> with
> frequent rollovers.  I'm no day-trader.
>
> I think I'm doing OK but every April 15th I dump as much as I can into
> these
> accounts leaving myself with a frighteningly low pad.  Basically I spend
> all
> my savings on that illustrious day.  Then the next couple months are sort
> of
> nail biters while I rebuild.   In case of emergency I have plenty of
> credit
> including home equity but of course that costs interest.  I have no debt
> except my mortgage.  I'm 51.
>
> So what are y'all buying these days?
>
> Slim
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Most people have very little understanding of economics even at a basic
> > level.
> > At my office, the owner of the company matches contributions to a 401k
> > program up to 3% of an employees earnings. A grand total of 2 people are
> > taking him up on it. That $20 into $40 that Brad was talking about....
> > right there. If your you're "long term", you'll need the money later. If
> > you're "short term", you can just take it all back when you quit, pay
> > your 15% penalty for early withdrawal, and you're still way ahead.
> >
> > When I worked for him at his previous company, he had the same program,
> > but we had better participation. I'll never forget one day when the
> > market went WAY down. Two or three of the folks were complaining about
> > how much money the "lost" because of it. I pretended to take them
> > literally and said "you mean you SOLD when the market went down? You're
> > not supposed to sell low, you're supposed to BUY low". Then I'd explain
> > to them (this time without the sarcasm) that when the market dips like
> > that, it means that the money you're putting into your 401k is buying
> > more stock. You haven't "lost" anything, unless you sell while it's
> > down, but that long term, you are coming out ahead, unless the
> > investments you chose disappear completely. A well rounded 401k doesn't
> > get hurt by short term market fluctuations.
> >
> > Rik Sandberg wrote:
> > > Brad,
> > >
> > > Yeah, we used to try to help some of our employees understand where
> they
> > > were going wrong with their personal finances. Start talking about
> > > compound interest and watch their eyes glaze over. As concepts go,
> > > supply and demand is an even tougher one to get across. They'll bitch
> > > about the price of gas, but if they sell their house for twice what
> they
> > > paid for it, they have no problem with that. It's just amazing.
> > >
> > > Rik
> > >
> > > "There's a reason why bankers drive Cadillacs and the rest of us drive
> > Chevies. Bankers collect interest,... The rest of us pay it" .... Rik
> > Sandberg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Brad Haslett wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hank & Rik,
> > >>
> > >> Every time I go to work I have a good laugh driving by the hub
> workers
> > >> parking lot on the way to the pilot's lot.  The hub workersry lot is
> > filled
> > >> with brand new iron.  The pilot lot looks like a salvage yard and you
> > wonder
> > >> how some of those beasts made the journey. My youngest son just left
> > for a
> > >> five month cruise on his USCG cutter and we had a long talk about
> what
> > a
> > >> wonderful opportunity this was for him to save money.  Yeah Right!  I
> > may as
> > >> well have been explaining the time value of money to the remaining
> > squirrels
> > >> in my backyard.
> > >>
> > >> Brad
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Ahhh .... to be young and bulletproof again, eh.
> > >>>
> > >>> But hey, they're having fun, that's the important thing .... right?
> > >>> Somebody'll take care of 'em if they fall on their face. Someone
> > always
> > >>> has, why would they stop now?
> > >>>
> > >>> Rik
> > >>>
> > >>> "There's a reason why bankers drive Cadillacs and the rest of us
> drive
> > >>> Chevies. Bankers collect interest,... The rest of us pay it" ....
> Rik
> > >>> Sandberg
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Hank wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Rik,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What gets me is the kids (20 somethings) working for me that are
> > driving
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> 40K
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> beemers, lexus, etc.  They don't put a dime away, rent an apartment
> > and
> > >>>> waste all their money on fancy cars.  You can talk to them until
> you
> > are
> > >>>> blue in the face and you won't get anywhere.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hank
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 5/2/08, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hank,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Yeah I hear that.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I am just flabbergasted these days talking to people about their
> > credit
> > >>>>> habits. How many do you know who would buy that pair of shoes on
> > their
> > >>>>> credit card, then, make the minimum monthly payment?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Rik
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "There's a reason why bankers drive Cadillacs and the rest of us
> > drive
> > >>>>> Chevies. Bankers collect interest,... The rest of us pay it" ....
> > Rik
> > >>>>> Sandberg
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hank wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> RIk,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I recently bought the most expensive pair of shoes I've ever
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> bought.  $130
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> for a pair of Johnston and Murphy leather dress slip-ons.  I
> almost
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>> had
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>> a
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> heart attack when they were rung up.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hank
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 5/2/08, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hank,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Admittedly interest rates are a bit slim these days.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> But, the way most people seem to think these days, if they found
> > 20
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>> on
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>> the street, they would only have to borrow another 100 to buy
> that
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>> cool
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>> new pair of shoes.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Rik
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> "There's a reason why bankers drive Cadillacs and the rest of us
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>> drive
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>> Chevies. Bankers collect interest,... The rest of us pay it"
> ....
> > Rik
> > >>>>>>> Sandberg
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hank wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Pretty soon it would be $40?  What bank do you use?  I want
> that
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> interest
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> rate!!!
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hank
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On 5/2/08, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Ed & Brad,
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Ha ha ..... yeah and if you found that twenty dollar bill and
> > said
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> hmmm,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> a windfall and put it in the bank, pretty soon it would be
> forty
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> dollars.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> This (saving) is apparently another foreign concept anymore.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I wunder sumtimes if koledge isn't over-rated.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Rik
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> "There's a reason why bankers drive Cadillacs and the rest of
> us
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>> drive
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Chevies. Bankers collect interest,... The rest of us pay it"
> > ....
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>> Rik
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Sandberg
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Ed,
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Good article.  I've watched a number of smart accounting
> > students
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> MBA
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> candidates struggle with the concept of "sunk costs" because
> > they
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> couldn't
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> remove emotions from the decision making process.  One
> > professor
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>> used
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> example of finding a twenty-dollar bill on the sidewalk.  Is
> > its
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>> value
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> zero
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> because it was free or is it worth $20?  If you paid $20 for
> a
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> share
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> company that failed and went out of business, is your share
> > worth
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>> $20
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>> or
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> it worthless?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> You'd think that the fear mongers of global warming would be
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>> ecstatic
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> about
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> $4 a gallon gasoline. And yet, the same voices are crying for
> a
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> solution
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> for
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> high gas prices.  No problem, let's start drilling!  No, we
> > can't
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> do
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> that
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> because of the "environment".  Fine, let gasoline go to five
> > bucks
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> a
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> gallon
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> and we'll slow global warming and "help" the environment. The
> > laws
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>> of
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> supply
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> and demand are pretty straight forward provided you keep
> > emotions
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> "rights" out of the decision making process.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Brad
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 7:06 AM, Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Brad stated, "Here's a novel idea for the passenger airlines
> I
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> learned
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> grad school - if it costs 4 cents to produce your product,
> > charge
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> a
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> nickel."
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Then he followed with a question, "Where do we find these
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> people?"
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Brad, your question presupposes that the readers either
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> understand
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> business
> > >>>>>>>>>>> (aka economics) or give a damn.  Remember you are asking
> that
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> question
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> supporters of Hillary and Obama and maybe even McCain.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> And Michael M has already said that we need to lay off the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> subject.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Apparently the socialists among us have been discretely
> given
> > a
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>> green
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> light
> > >>>>>>>>>>> by Michael M.  One posts an obviously baiting citation of a
> > Maine
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> advocacy
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> of national health care.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I ask you how many understand the following short article?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>
> >
> http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/07/economicthinking.htm
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ed K
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>
> >
> http://www.nabble.com/Political---big-Al-delete---Brads-economic-question---However-Big-Al-have-considered-that-you-opinions-might-be-necessary-to-keep-the-young%27uns-in-reality--tp17017185p17017185.html
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> __________________________________________________
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> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> __________________________________________________
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> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> __________________________________________________
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> > >>
> > >>
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