[Rhodes22-list] Respect

pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net
Thu Oct 23 09:04:05 EDT 2008 

Hi Herb,

Your post outines exactly what I was trying to say.  No, I don't think
it's necessary or appropriate for someone to call you extreme.  No, I
don't think it's necessary or appropriate for someone to call you
non-chalant about soldier's deaths.  No, I don't think it's necessary or
appropriate for someone to call you Mr. Herb
Always-has-to-have-the-last-word Parsons.  No, I don't think it's
necessary or appropriate for you or anyone else to call someone a liar. 
And no, I don't think it's necessary or appropriate for you or anyone else
to call someone an asshole.  As I said earlier, everyone just needs to
lightup a little and not take things so personally.

Frankly, I think we've got a good thing going here with lively debate and
exchange of ideas, if we could just keep it more respectful and eliminate
the personal attacks.  If you think about it, it wouldn't be nearly as
much fun if you didn't have a good balance between left-leaning viewpoints
and right-leaning viewpoints.  If it was all one sided one way or the
other it would be kind of boring.

Best Regards,
Paul



> Actually, it was Michael Weisner that labeled me "extreme" (I added the
> "ist", but it's just another way to say the same thing) because, get
> this - I said I wouldn't purchase a bumper sticker from a company the
> also sells bumper stickers advocating the killing of a political
> candidate. That was an "extreme" position according to Michael. So, I
> adopted the label. It probably does fit me, but wow.... Standing up for
> what you believe is no "extreme". Sad state of affairs.
>
> As to the asshole thing - "Some frequency"???? I think maybe you should
> go back and look again. As a matter of fact, I challenge you on it. I
> think you're either mistaken, or a liar, plain and simple (and I really
> do believe it's the former, not the latter).
>
> I recently called Ben one, because of his (I'll grant him and you,
> perceived) threat about legal action.
>
> I called Slim one when he stated that I was "non-chalant" about
> soldier's deaths. If he had said that one to my face, I'd have done a
> lot more than call him an asshole.
>
> And, there was the time when Robert didn't like me responding to one of
> his messages, and referred to me as "Mr. Herb
> Always-has-to-have-the-last-word Parsons" and I told him to quit acting
> like one (you know, the whole name-calling thing that some of you think
> is so bad, depending, of course, on who it's aimed at).
>
> That's 2, 3 if you count the "acting like". I post here a LOT and I
> don't think 2 or 3 posts would really qualify as "frequent". But then, I
> wouldn't have thought my position mentioned earlier as "extreme".
>
> Looking at the past email in my system, Brad tends to call folks that as
> well, one notable case was aimed at Pete. I seem to have gotten credit
> for that one a couple of times, but twarn't me (though I didn't disagree).
>
> Seems you're paying quite a bit of attention to what you don't like me
> doing, and ignoring the rest. Would you like the examples of the implied
> racists, stated extremist, talk about "debaters vs just believers" and
> all the other nonsense on here?
>
> Somehow, some folks on here seem to think it's cute, intelligent, or
> somehow honorable to imply something about someone, and then rude for
> another person to say something outright.
>
> I disagree. Strongly.
>
> I say that when Rob writes "I've been saying for some time that the
> Democrats are the party for thinkers and debaters while the Republicans
> just believe" he's saying something about ME. Something that is a lie.
> I'm a Republican, and he says I don't have the capacity (or choose not
> to exercise it) to think and debate, but I simply blindly believe.
>
> Not only does he say it, he proudly admits he's been "saying for some
> time".
>
> And that's somehow polite and OK, but asshole is not?
>
> Wow. I'll simply have to disagree on this one.
>
>
>
>
> David Bradley wrote:
>> Herb, I assume you are reading the list and it's an open forum.  My
>> reply was voiced to Ben in answer to his question, but it was for you.
>>  I stand by my statements.  You label yourself as extreme, and I
>> agree.  I don't recall anyone directly calling you a racist or a
>> religous kook or a bigot.  I do recall you telling people they are an
>> asshole with some frequency.  I think you degrade the experience for
>> all.
>>
>> My opinion.  Call me what you will.
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Gee Davey, I wish I wuz smart like you. I thinks ah did a little give
>>> and take, but I definitely didn't run Ben down to someone else and
>>> pretend he couldn't see what I was saying.
>>>
>>> I'll give Ben this much, he has an issue with someone, he addresses it
>>> to them directly, not as an aside to someone else.
>>>
>>>
>>> David Bradley wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ben, your posts are appreciated by what I suspect is a silent
>>>> majority, even if a slim one.  Herb is to the right of 99% of the
>>>> population, loves to pick a fight and is first to escalate the tone
>>>> and begin the name calling.  He would have been thrown out of any bar
>>>> I've ever hung out in long ago.  Most of us just don't bother to
>>>> reason with him because there is no reasoning, no give and take.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Benjamin Cittadino
>>>> <bigben65 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Paul;
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate the sentiment.  Thanks for the thought. Frankly, I'm
>>>>> reassessing my role here and whether it makes sense to participate
>>>>> further,
>>>>> at least as to the political stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>
>>>>> pdgrand wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not Jb but I'd like to weigh in on the subject.  As I said in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> past, I used to especially enjoy the political debating between Brad
>>>>>> &
>>>>>> Bill in past election cycles.  They didn't get personal and they
>>>>>> kept it
>>>>>> respectful.  Bill seems to be sitting this one out, leaving you,
>>>>>> Pete &
>>>>>> some others to lead the arguements for the left against Brad, Herb &
>>>>>> Ed on
>>>>>> the right.  Personally, I don't recall reading anything from you
>>>>>> that I
>>>>>> would term offensive.  Others obviously disagree.  Discussing
>>>>>> politics
>>>>>> often evokes different levels of emotion in different people.  Let's
>>>>>> keep
>>>>>> the lively debate going, but everyone needs to work on not taking
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> personally or getting personal with a reply to what may only be a
>>>>>> perceived insult (which you have done for the most part).  In other
>>>>>> words,
>>>>>> everyone just needs to lighten up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Jb;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am curious.  Do you see no problem with Ed's post at the
>>>>>>> beginning of
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> thread? Is it OK for members to call each other such vile names as
>>>>>>> marxist
>>>>>>> or refer to them being co-conspirators in a fraud?  I know your
>>>>>>> opinion
>>>>>>> about what I said.  What is your opinion of what Ed said, not as it
>>>>>>> relates
>>>>>>> to me but as it relates generally to behavior of forum members? Do
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>> such invective entertaining?  I'm trying to be serious here for a
>>>>>>> moment.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am interested in your opinion because I haven't skirmished with you
>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>> and I really want a fresh thought on this?  Are you willing to put
>>>>>>> aside
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> "reparte" for a moment and address this subject? You talk, I'll
>>>>>>> listen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Herb
>>>>>>>> My pic is at the end of the post.     jb.jpg
>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:30 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or leading
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm looking at my screen, but can't say for sure. I see black,
>>>>>>>>> and see
>>>>>>>>> white in your post.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Both are extremes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You realize, it's all tongue in cheek don't you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We both know the truth. Ben was putting out a stupid threat, and
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> probably embarrassed that anyone called him on it.... OK, I'll be
>>>>>>>>> honest, probably embarrassed that anyone besides ME called him on
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I never liked it when the kids at school pumped out their chests
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> they were ready to fight. I always thought the real fun was
>>>>>>>>> watching
>>>>>>>>> them back down.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, I'm an extremist, and probably do look like one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But then, there are worst things in life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Herb.
>>>>>>>>>> do I look like an extreamist?
>>>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> hparsons wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ahhh, good to know I'm not the only extremist that saw it that
>>>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you should look a little closer at how you worded things
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ben....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not the only one ....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> JbTek wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant were you threatening to sue. That's what it read like
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think name calling is allowed on this list, or at least
>>>>>>>>>>>> tolerated
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> threats are not.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 2:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or
>>>>>>>>>>>> leading
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean, was Ed threatening to charge me as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> co-conspirator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounded like that to me. Or did you mean was Ed threatening
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> label
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> marxist? Sure sounded that way to me. Was I threatening to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sue Ed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was gently suggesting that if I did not have such a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>> developed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense of humor a person in my position (libeled by him) might
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> options and he ought not call people defamatory names.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I got a question or you....was that a threat?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 8:39 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Will you answer some questions for me? What is a marxist as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes me a marxist in your view?  Does the 1st Amendment to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immunize folks who libel other folks? Does calling someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> marxist
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not in fact a marxist constitute defamation of character?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life savings?  Inquiring minds want to know?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have a nice day.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama intentionally and cynically has misled the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship with Ayers.  This issue isn't going away and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go away.  Speculation is strong and the evidence is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> growing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama and Ayers relationship goes all the way back to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> days
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NYC at Columbia (Ayers was there at the same time and they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friends of Dr. Saed) and that Ayers actually ghost
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authored
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obama's
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first book (the word count and sentence structure mirrors
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ayer's
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writing and was written at a 12th grade level, Obama's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written at a 9th grade level).  But let's forget
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speculation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment and stick with what is known.  I'm posting a link
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the article so you can see the photo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/20/obama-praised-searing-timely-book-ayers/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We know from tax returns from the Annenberg Challenge that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Obama,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ayers, and Klonsky all had offices on the same floor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building. Michelle and Ayers' wife both worked at the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> firm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama and Ayers appeared at joint speaking engagements
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way, Illinois ethics law prohibits receiving fees for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama's tax returns show "speaker fees" during the period
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Illinois Senate, another MSM oversight).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Just a guy in my neighborhood with a degree in English"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That was willful intent to decieve and the MSM has for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let him get away with it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The man is a liar, if he were on trial he would certainly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> guilty
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perjury - and he may well be, soon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Tootle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben said, "... Since I socialize mostly with folks in my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socioeconomic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> class, while most support Obama, ..."  The term
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leadership
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> comprises
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> atributes.  And part of what are call traditional values
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> simple
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honesty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes honesty requires analysis of what is going on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> saying
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> America, we have a problem..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben discounted the Bill Ayers thing.  Even if he is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marxist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ayers, he as an American has an obligation to speak the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> America a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marxist is obligated to tell the truth and not lie about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with his candidate Obama.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So what are the elements of Conspiracy?  If you know or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable known something?  Are you obligated to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> something?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not say anything are you a coconspirator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Ben's case I have to ask, if a fraud is being commited
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obligated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speak out?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is why I routinely for years have quoted:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Germany they first came for the Communists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Then they came for the Jews,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they came for the trade unionists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unionist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they came for the Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Then they came for me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    and by that time no one was left to speak up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  --The Reverend Martin Niemöller, a pastor in the German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Confessing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Church
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who spent seven years in a concentration camp.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben said, "... I, on the other hand, wish there were no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> connection
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because then we could argue about policy instead of who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> who,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when, and what possible difference it makes."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this an admission of an issue?  Saying that because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deny
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connection is using Richard Nixon's arguement that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> politics did it, therefore it was o.k.  Saying his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friends
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> deny
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not make it go away.  It is Richard Nixon's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arguement all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wasn't Nixon a lawyer?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does law school teach ask the hard questions in court,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of yourself?  Are lawyers above the law?  Inquiring minds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attachment for Andrew:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p20084939/Andrew%2527s%2Bversion.jpg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew%27s+version.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20084939.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20093092.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20099555.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p20100644/Jb.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>>>>> go to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>>>> go to
>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20101056.html
>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20122113.html
>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>
>

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