[Rhodes22-list] Politiical- Answers to Herb's Questions @ Lawyers
Herb Parsons
hparsons at parsonsys.com
Thu Oct 30 16:56:19 EDT 2008
Would you not agree that a lawyer's duty (not a prosecution lawyer, but
a defense lawyer) has more to do with advocacy than it does "justice for
the client"?
Would you also not agree that in our advocacy system, "justice for the
client" can, and often is, different than just plain justice for all?
Finally, would you not agree that there is something hypocritical with a
system that allows an attorney to withdraw because he's not getting
paid, but does not allow one to withdraw because his client is guilty?
Ben Cittadino wrote:
> Herb;
>
> I'm going to make a leap of faith here and assume you asked serious
> questions for reasons other than playing "gotcha", and that you want serious
> answers.
>
> To understand the trial lawyer's ethical obligations you need to understand
> that our system is based upon the old English idea of "trial by ordeal' that
> evolved into "trial by combat" that evolved into "trial by champion" that
> further evolved into the "clash of advocates" as a method to search for
> truth. The "modern trial" is only effective as a search for truth where
> both advocates (in a two party case-in your example the Government and the
> defendant) are competent and totally dedicated to the cause of their
> "client". Neither lawyer is permitted to consider anything but using every
> means within the rules (ethics, evidence, pre-trial disclosure,etc.) to
> advocate for their side of the case. It is not their function in the system
> to become Judge or Jury and reach a conclusion as to the "correct" or "just"
> outcome for society as a whole. If one lawyer does that, the system is
> thrown off balance and the search for truth is thwarted. The Judge (in a
> bench trial) or the Jury (in a jury trial) are the only ones charged with
> reaching a "just" or "correct" verdict, but only after consideration of the
> facts as brought before them by the advocates for each side.
>
> Now you phrased your question to "me" and I must tell you that while I
> served as a prosecutor many years ago (as a young lawyer) I have never
> defended a serious criminal case. My trial practice involves the
> representation mostly of civil plaintiffs in medical negligence cases and
> other serious personal injury cases.
> They are major cases that often involve weeks of trial and lots of money at
> stake but I have never defended someone on trial for their life. I have done
> some defense work also for physicians and others but that's it.
>
> Anyhow, lawyers have no problem representing "guilty" people because the
> system does not expect them to anything but competently put the Government
> to their burden of proof, and it is the jury's function to decide guilt or
> innocence.
>
> As for the fee issue, once in the case the lawyer is obligated to see it
> through unless excused by the Judge for a very good reason. I have
> personally known many fine lawyers who have stuck with a client and not
> asked to be relieved or substituted with a public defender at great fiscal
> sacrifice.
>
> By the way my three favorite "lawyer movies", which I highly recommend to
> anyone, and which peaked my interest in becoming a trial lawyer are,
> "Witness for the Prosecution", "Anatomy of a Murder", and absolutely the
> best movie of all time in any genre , "To Kill A Mocking Bird". The Paul
> Newman movie "The Verdict" which is about a medical mealpactice lawyer gives
> me a stomach ache.
>
> I hope these remarks answer your questions.
>
> Ben C.
>
> PS-aren't there any lawyers out there (or are you all to smart and laying
> low as I should have).
>
> hparsons wrote:
>
>> Ben,
>>
>> I have three questions for you.
>>
>> 1) If you take a man's case, and he looks you straight in the eye and
>> says "I did it. I killed my wife, and I'd do it again, I won't testify,
>> so you won't have to worry about perjury, but I want you to do
>> everything in your power to get me acquitted. If you can't do that, I
>> want you to do everything in your power to get me off as lightly as
>> possible. I don't mind you insisting I'm crazy, I just want to have to
>> pay the price for what I did", and he continues to pay your fee, are you
>> going to continue to represent him? If not, what excuse are you going to
>> give the judge for wanting to withdraw?
>>
>> 2) Different case. The man tells you honestly "I did not do this crime.
>> I'm totally innocent, but I know I can't prove it. Unfortunately, I no
>> longer have any money." Will you continue to represent him?
>>
>> 3) Finally, will you define "justice for my client" in both issues, and
>> relate how "justice" for one might be a totally different thing that
>> "justice for all".
>>
>>
>> Benjamin Cittadino wrote:
>>
>>> Very good Mike. I got it on the first go-round this time. Three gold
>>> stars.
>>> By the way I don't refer to myself as a litigation lawyer. I'm just a
>>> simple
>>> country lawyer looking for justice for my clients.
>>>
>>> Keep it up. Your sharp eye must be valuable on the water.
>>>
>>> Ben C.
>>>
>>> R22MikeW wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ben,
>>>>
>>>> Gee, I wonder exactly what a ligation lawyer does. Interesting thought,
>>>> the
>>>> objective of a ligation practice must be to tie the involved parties
>>>> together. Yeah, that might work. Then again, there's always the
>>>> libation
>>>> practices ...
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>> s/v Shanghaid'd Summer ('81)
>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>>
>>>> From: "Hank" <hnw555 at gmail.com>Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:59
>>>> PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ben,
>>>>>
>>>>> You being a ligation lawyer, how much of the cost of our healthcare can
>>>>> be
>>>>> attributed to the current system of tort law in the US. I know when my
>>>>> father passed away from a massive heart attack, we were told by the
>>>>> hospital
>>>>> that they could not have saved him if he had been in the operating room
>>>>> at
>>>>> the time of the heart attack. However, that didn't prevent the
>>>>> emergency
>>>>> room from performing about 5K worth of work on him that they ended up
>>>>> eating
>>>>> as he had no estate or health insurance. I'm sure a good bit of what
>>>>> they
>>>>> did was to avoid any potential law suits.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hank
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/29/08, Ben Cittadino <bcittadino at dcs-law.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brad;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Singapore, Sweden, Japan, Hong Kong, Iceland, France, Finland,
>>>>>> Anguilla,
>>>>>> Norway, Malta, Czech Republic, Germany, Andorra, Switzerland, Spain,
>>>>>> Israel,
>>>>>> Macau, Slovenia, Denmark, Austria, Belgium, Australia, Lichtenstein,
>>>>>> Guernsey, Luxunbourg, Netherlands, Portugal,Gibraltar, United Kingdom,
>>>>>> New
>>>>>> Zealand, Jersey,Canada,Ireland, Monaco, Greece, San Marino, Taiwan,
>>>>>> Italy,
>>>>>> Isle of Man, Cuba, and South Korea ALL HAVE A LOWER INFANT MORTALITY
>>>>>> RATE
>>>>>> THAN THE USA. (Source, CIA World Factbook, Jan 1, 2008.)
>>>>>> (Tootle, How about THAT source.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think there is any more objective measure of the delivery of
>>>>>> quality
>>>>>> health care than the infant mortality rate? We can do some spectacular
>>>>>> things in our specialty hospitals (I should know, I had my quadruple
>>>>>> by-pass
>>>>>> surgery at Cleveland Clinic, a wonderful major center, but my surgeon
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> Swede, Gosta Pettersson, MD, who I highly recommend).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The major difference I think you and I have on this subject is that I
>>>>>> understand WE ARE ALREADY PAYING for health care for the poor. The
>>>>>> taxpayers are picking up the tab for a very inefficient and ultimately
>>>>>> sub-standard system. If we include a lot more folks the economies of
>>>>>> scale
>>>>>> will cost us less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you believe the poor and unemployed are in that condition by
>>>>>> choice,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> that the only way to get them to work is to set up the system so they
>>>>>> starve
>>>>>> to death if they don't get their fannies out of bed in the morning,
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> probably can't get to common ground on this issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do agree about one thing. We do spend way too much on heroic
>>>>>> "end-of-life"
>>>>>> care. I read somewhere that fully 80% of all medicare money is spent
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> patients in the last three months of their lives. I sure hope if I end
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> like poor Terry Schiavo in Florida a few years ago someone has the
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> grace to give me the old .45 caliber craniotomy. (Herb, I think this
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> where you come in--I mean the pro-life argument, not the volunteer to
>>>>>> perform the craniotomy).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ben,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Ed pointed out, the New York Times, especially the editorial page,
>>>>>>> is hardly an unbiased source for anything. The AP is no better.
>>>>>>> Take
>>>>>>> the Iraq war for example - the AP coverage was so slanted and
>>>>>>> misleading I quit paying attention to it other than out of curiosity
>>>>>>> to see where others were getting their information. The coverage
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> independent reporters such as Michael Yon, both good and bad, was
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That said, let's tackle the "health care" crisis. First, a history
>>>>>>> lesson. The whole idea of employer provided health insurance started
>>>>>>> during WW2 because wages were frozen and providing company sponsored
>>>>>>> health insurance was a way to attract workers at the same wage other
>>>>>>> companies were paying. That still holds true but the costs of that
>>>>>>> coverage has risen dramatically. The old adage of "you don't get
>>>>>>> something for nothing" still applies. Any employee only has x amount
>>>>>>> of economic value to any entity, and if you force companies to
>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>> health insurance, that economic benefit will flow to the employee in
>>>>>>> lieu of cash wages. That is certainly true in my own personal
>>>>>>> situation as a collectively bargained employee. Near the end of
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> negotiation cycle as both sides start sharpening knives, the company
>>>>>>> throws down a final "this is the size of the pie" last proposal and
>>>>>>> then we have to determine how we want it sliced, health care or cash?
>>>>>>> Nothing in either of these candidates proposals will escape that
>>>>>>> basic
>>>>>>> fundamental truth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What gets lost in all this election cycle marketing bullshit (and
>>>>>>> Obama is much better at marketing bullshit than McCain) is the real
>>>>>>> nature of health insurance versus health care and the
>>>>>>> inter-relationships of economic and social policies. The reason most
>>>>>>> of us get out of bed in the morning and go to work is because we like
>>>>>>> to enjoy nice things, ie, housing, food, toys, etc. When government
>>>>>>> intervenes in the marketplace and provides those basic things,
>>>>>>> especially housing and food, a large segment of the population is
>>>>>>> happy to stay in bed. This is fact and President Clinton recognized
>>>>>>> this basic social principle and "reformed welfare" as a result. To
>>>>>>> add "free" health insurance to the mix without personal
>>>>>>> responsibility
>>>>>>> only adds to the problem, so one needs to tread lightly when
>>>>>>> government imposes itself in any fashion into the issue. We know (or
>>>>>>> should know) that we don't want nationalized health care. Find me a
>>>>>>> country that has better health care than the United States (provided
>>>>>>> you can afford access) and I'll consider changing my assessment.
>>>>>>> Health insurance is no different than any other insurance, it is to
>>>>>>> provide for losses that you cannot afford. Part of the 45 million
>>>>>>> Americans without health care we hear so much about are young people
>>>>>>> who have the opportunity to purchase health insurance but don't want
>>>>>>> to, some are temporarily un-employed or self employed, and some you
>>>>>>> are never going to get to work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any government sponsored health care scheme is going to "break the
>>>>>>> bank" if you don't solve the two ends of the tails of the health care
>>>>>>> cost curve. The individual must be responsible for the initial,
>>>>>>> minor
>>>>>>> costs of "going to the doctor" or you get the kind of abuses that
>>>>>>> TennCare discovered (Tennessee's attempt at health care). The other
>>>>>>> end of the tail is the vast sums of money spent on incredibly
>>>>>>> expensive medical treatments that are often offered to extend life by
>>>>>>> a few weeks or months. I know this sounds harsh but it's economic
>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both the Obama and McCain plans pose the risk of some employers
>>>>>>> dropping health care because the government may provide lower cost
>>>>>>> options. The Obama campaign is lying (I know that's hard for you to
>>>>>>> imagine) when it says their plan doesn't have the same inherent risks
>>>>>>> associated with it. I like the McCain plan better because it allows
>>>>>>> more options and responsibility to the individual. The $2500 rebate
>>>>>>> ($5000 for families) applies to everyone regardless of income or even
>>>>>>> employment. It will in fact probably cost me money in higher taxes
>>>>>>> (but then what doesn't?). Of the two, I see it as the most socially
>>>>>>> responsible. Which plan will be the most expensive? I don't know and
>>>>>>> neither do they but I do know who is going to pay for it - the same
>>>>>>> people who pay for everything else in this country, the "rich".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None of this applies to me (except for the paying part) because
>>>>>>> health
>>>>>>> insurance is covered by my collective bargaining agreement. I'll be
>>>>>>> happy to give career advice to anyone looking for flying lessons if
>>>>>>> you want in on this "gravy train".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This campaign has boiled down to "who is the better Santa Claus" in
>>>>>>> the closing days. Both McCain and Obama are being irresponsible to
>>>>>>> some degree.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Herb Parsons
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The ERs are being used for this, but you're overlooking the nature
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> what's involved. You have to go and wait, typically for anywhere
>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>> 3-8 hours for "minor" issues. This discourages the "I don't feel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> let me go see the dr" stuff that Brad and Ed are talking about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Personally, I'm not happy with that either. My guess is that they
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> clear up about 70% of the backlog at ER's by having an INS office
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ben Cittadino wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brad and Ed;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brad- you're forgetting something. We are already paying for
>>>>>>>>> healthcare
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the uninsured. It's illegal for ER's to turn people away, insured
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> not. We
>>>>>>>>> are just paying more, getting lousy care (because ER's are not set
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> primary care providers), more expensively (because ER's are
>>>>>>>>> overkill
>>>>>>>>> (pardon
>>>>>>>>> the pun) in most situations, and we taxpayers are footing the bill
>>>>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ed- the second post is from the AP, not NYTimes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tootle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mr. Philadelphia Lawyer, The New York Times has been taken over
>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>> Communists. Your source material is too biased. Find something
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> American viewpoint.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Consider an alternative local newspaper such as:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.thebulletin.us/site/news.asp?brd=2737
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How is your retirement funded? Or how was it funded? See your
>>>>>>>>>> local
>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia newspaper:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.thebulletin.us/site/index.cfm?newsid=20179546&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=8
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or since you like Times in the heading, consider the:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.washingtontimes.com/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or just go to church on sunday and get their bulletin. Read
>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>> other than that Communists Rag.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p20218848/Philadelphia%2BBulletin.gif
>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia+Bulletin.gif
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/POLITICAL%3AHealth-Care-Plans.-NYTimes-Endorses-Obama%27s-tp20208884p20229674.html
>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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