[Rhodes22-list] Rik S., a question of when life begins and Ben C.'s comment thereon

Brad Haslett flybrad at gmail.com
Wed Sep 10 20:03:41 EDT 2008 

Herb,

This is only loosely related at best but a good a place as any to
insert a story-

http://palepage.com/?p=2491

Whatever the outcome of the election, Gov. Palin is raising awareness
about Downs children.

Brad

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 6:40 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
> Whatever
>
>
> Rik Sandberg wrote:
>> Herb,
>>
>> Seems then that we agree on the fetus's rights.
>>
>> I don't try to speak for others.
>>
>> Rik
>>
>> Ayn Rand was a prophet - - it isn't my fault
>>
>>
>>
>> Hank wrote:
>>
>>> Rik,
>>>
>>> I am 100% behind Herb on this and here is my reasoning.  The government
>>> regulates choices everyday.  If you choose to rob a store, the gov't
>>> regulations provide for punishment.  The issue is whether or not an abortion
>>> should be considered criminal.  In my mind and according to my faith, all
>>> life is sacred, from the fetus a conception to the convicted murderer in
>>> prison.  We do not have the right it indiscriminately take a life.  I
>>> believe that life begins at conception and not some arbitrary point along
>>> the path towards birth.
>>>
>>> Hank
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Herb,
>>>>
>>>> Nothing I have said should be construed to mean I would not try to
>>>> convince someone I know or might come in contact with that there might
>>>> not be a better solution to her pregnancy than an abortion. And, in fact
>>>> I have. I have said that I would not want an abortion in my family. I
>>>> have also said that I do not feel it is the federal government's place
>>>> to force their will on those who find themselves in the position of
>>>> having to make their choice.
>>>>
>>>> That said, I have said what I think on this matter. I don't need, nor
>>>> was I hoping to receive your approval.
>>>>
>>>> Rik
>>>>
>>>> Ayn Rand was a prophet - - it isn't my fault
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You do understand that I haven't "decided" the issue in order to judge.
>>>>>
>>>>> A civilization decides to "dehumanize" members of one race. Members of
>>>>> that civilization eventually come to their senses and decide to change
>>>>> it. That's not judgment, that's trying to make a change. Now, if you
>>>>> want me today to condemn those who practiced what was law at the time,
>>>>> THAT would be judgment. I have no need, or desire, to judge them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today, we as a civilization are allowing the massacre of millions of
>>>>> unborn babies, primarily in the name of convenience for the mother. I
>>>>> don't care to retroactive punish, or even publicly humiliate, those
>>>>> individuals; however, I have no problem at all saying I believe that the
>>>>> practice is wrong, and more importantly, I believe our nation's flip
>>>>> attitude concerning the issue is wrong. Nor do I believe I'm doing
>>>>> anything wrong in trying to change our "corporate" tolerance of the
>>>>> practice. I'll continue to try to bring about that change for as long as
>>>>> I'm around.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rik Sandberg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having worked in medical imaging, I can say with certainty that the old
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> time
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> line is wrong.  It may be the law, but the law is wrong because we now
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> pictures and other data to say it is wrong.  It is not a religious
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> thing,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> but now a factual thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> What an unborn embryo/fetus looks like in a picture has virtually
>>>>>> nothing to do with this issue. So, your facts are actually, just your
>>>>>> opinion. It has been known for a long time, long before before pictures
>>>>>> were possible, that, that clump of cells in a mothers womb was
>>>>>> eventually going to become a baby.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I have said previously, I will have to answer to my god when all is
>>>>>> said and done as will everyone else, whether they know or believe they
>>>>>> have a god or not. That may be a fact or not, but no one will know that
>>>>>> absolutely until it's too late for them to return to explain it to the
>>>>>> rest of us. 'Til then I will continue to try my best to judge not, lest
>>>>>> I be judged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rik
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ayn Rand was a prophet - - it isn't my fault
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tootle wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RiK,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When Roe v Wade was decided there was not accurate information
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> available to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> answer the question with any certainty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, science and medical tools have advanced.  Just look at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> Ultrasound
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> pictures and ecocardiograms available today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today nobody is willing to look at current medical information and say
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> old time frame is not true, not accurate in light of modern
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> I originally thought that your's and Ben's arguement were acceptable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>  Ben
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> said, "It's a judgment call. It seems reasonable enough to me."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having worked in medical imaging, I can say with certainty that the old
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> time
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> line is wrong.  It may be the law, but the law is wrong because we now
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> pictures and other data to say it is wrong.  It is not a religious
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> thing,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> but now a factual thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where is Alice on this subject.  Still trying to start her Yamaha?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your opinion just walks away from killing.  When you are in a nursing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> home
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> and too feeble to stop them, will it be just as acceptable for them to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> put a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> blanket over your head and do a Dr. Kevorkian?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, I have had to change my opinion because the facts and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> scientific
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> information are now available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rik,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm with you.  I only get to play God a few times a month when I'm
>>>>>>>> giving a checkride and even then there's "higher powers" that will
>>>>>>>> question my decisions.  Here's a couple of neat videos of real people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://kdka.com/local/Palin.Down.Syndrome.2.809737.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.wpxi.com/video/17384228/index.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not sure why you'd be asking me this question. I have already stated
>>>>>>>>> that I am not in favor of abortion, but I do mind my own business.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>> Also,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am surely no expert on either the medical or scientific aspects of
>>>>>>>>> pregnancy/child bearing so this question, as others have said, is
>>>>>>>>> probably above my pay grade.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't like to see people performing the scenario, partial birth
>>>>>>>>> abortion I believe it is called, that Todd was talking about. I'm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>> pretty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> sure that a fetus is truly a person by then.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One thing I do know is, nobody is going to have to answer for my sins
>>>>>>>>> but me. As such, since I am not without sin, I have no business
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>> casting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> stones.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rik
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ayn Rand was a prophet - - it isn't my fault
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tootle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rik,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Using modern science and modern medical and scientific tools, when
>>>>>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>>>>>> does life begin?  Disregard court opinions, which are just opinions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>>>>>> addendum, 'Making right choices in gray areas is difficult.  To be
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> aware
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the dilemma is not enough.   There needs to be a moral sensitivity
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> which
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> remembers to ask the right questions at the right time.  To know
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> what is
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> good is not enough?  There is a difference between waking up and
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> getting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>>>>> There must be specific decision for the right.  To be sensitive and
>>>>>>>>>> aware is
>>>>>>>>>> good.  To make proper decisions is better.'  Paraphrase of Bryan
>>>>>>>>>> Crenshaw
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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