[Rhodes22-list] GB does business

R22RumRunner at aol.com R22RumRunner at aol.com
Sat Aug 1 09:36:33 EDT 2009


Art and all,
I'm sure Stan appreciates your attempts to help him, but he has been doing  
this for a very long time. He knows what works best for him. "If it ain't 
broke,  don't fix it."
 
Rummy
 
 
In a message dated 8/1/2009 8:39:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
czerwonky at earthlink.net writes:

Deena,

I appreciate your insightful reply re the  Rhodes.  I'll have to come over 
and visit and see your boat up close at  some point.  I am certainly excited 
about mine.  I sometimes think  that the time and circumstance just doesn't 
seem to fit for promoting this GB  enterprise, although I would like to see 
it move ahead.  It is just one  ponderous step at a time.  Frankly I have 
come to find that working with  the fearless leader has been such an ordeal, 
even a painful one.

I am  curious to see the Quantico marina.  I notice the icon museum every 
time  I drive to DC.  Your husband was USMC?  

Have a nice  weekend.

Art



-----Original Message-----
>From:  captainpy at comcast.net
>Sent: Aug 1, 2009 7:19 AM
>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list]  Promos
>
>
>
>Art, 
>
>I like the idea of  the pens the best.  They wouldn't be as expensive to 
obtain, and  are to maintain a supply and restock as needed.  At the same 
time it  wouldn't give the appearance of a diminished product.  Having been a  
retail store manager years ago I am a firm believer in not reducing the 
price  of a high quality product.  People tended then not to purchase it and  
would many times wait until they thought it might go on sale.  They  also felt 
if you lowered the price maybe it wasn't so great after all.  I  just got 
my assessment from our association.  They sent everyone a letter  informing 
us they were raising our yearly fee  5% due to the  economy.  We also got a 
price hike with our utilities.   My husband did not get a 5% raise to keep up 
with the pace.  Alot of  people just are cutting back.  My Rhodes is kept 
at the quantico  marina.  We don't see very many people going out on their 
motor boats  this year.  
>
>
>
>Deena  
>
>
>
>  
>----- Original Message -----  
>From: rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org 
>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:41:46 PM GMT  -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
>Subject: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1933,  Issue 4 
>
>Send Rhodes22-list mailing list submissions to  
>        rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org  
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit  
>        http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list  
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to  
>        rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org  
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at  
>        rhodes22-list-owner at rhodes22.org  
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more  specific 
>than "Re: Contents of Rhodes22-list digest..."  
>
>
>Today's Topics: 
>
>   1. Re:  Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway (Leland) 
>   2. Re:  Rhodes Promotions (R22RumRunner at aol.com) 
>   3. Re:  Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway (Hank) 
>   4. Re: Rhodes  Crew Gear (BenCittadino)  
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------  
>
>Message: 1 
>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:51:13 -0700 (PDT)  
>From: Leland <LKUHN at cnmc.org> 
>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway 
>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>Message-ID:  <24764138.post at talk.nabble.com> 
>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=us-ascii 
>
>
>
>David,  
>
>Everything I've read indicates that you are right.  Many  of the times 
that 
>I've measured the effects of the centerboard I've  noticed more than a ten 
>degree improvement into the wind.  However, every time I put the board 
down 
>I slow down.  Every time I raise the board I speed up. 
>
>Hopefully this  picture will come through:  
>
>
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p24764138/Sail%2BSpeed.ppt  Sail+Speed.ppt 
>
>Let's assume you're sailing from point A to B  with the board up.  Doesn't 
>matter how much you drift because  you're still going from point A to B.  
If 
>you put the board down  you can sail more into the wind and you are able 
to 
>sail from point A  to C.  To get to point B you would then need to sail 
from 
>point C  to A.  Even if you weren't sailing slower with the board down,  
>wouldn't it take you longer to go from point A to C to B than sailing  
>directly from point A to B? 
>
>Am I missing something?  
>
>Unless I want to go more into the wind, it still seems like  the best 
reason 
>to put the board down is to knock the barnacles off.  
>
>Lee 
>
>
>Yesterday I got the chance to sail  in 5-10 kt wind and relatively flat 
>water.  I set the boat up on  a beam reach (apparent wind 90 degreees).  
The 
>course was was 060  M by my steering compass.  We were able to do about 
>.5  - 4  kts SOG by the GPS. 
>
>With the board down our  COG (Course  over ground) was 055-057 M 
>With the board up out COG  was 045-048  M 
>
>Although my steering compass is not compensated and thus has  unknown 
>deviation, since it was held steady at 060 the deviation has  no 
importance 
>here.  Lowering the board reduced leeway by about  10 degrees.  Lowering 
the 
>board had no observed effect on SOG  although wind variation could have 
>hidden a small effect.  Based  on these results I see no reason to sail 
with 
>the board up unless in  very thin water and one very good reason to sail 
with 
>it down.  
>
>David Walker 
>-- 
>View this message in context:  
http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24764138.html 
>Sent  from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.  
>
>
>
>------------------------------  
>
>Message: 2 
>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:03:21 EDT  
>From: R22RumRunner at aol.com 
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes  Promotions 
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>Message-ID:  <c60.4aa50792.37a4e049 at aol.com> 
>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="US-ASCII" 
>
>Michael, 
>  
>   
>Yes, they still have the logo. I have the information on a different  
>computer. I will send it to you later. 
>   
>Rummy 
>  
>  
>In a message dated  7/30/2009 9:22:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,    
>mjm at michaelmeltzer.com writes: 
>
>Is the  rhodes22  logo still on file with lands end? Rummy you remember or 
>one  else? 
>
>-mjm 
>
>-----Original Message-----  
>From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org  
>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]  On Behalf Of Arthur  H. 
Czerwonky 
>Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:23  PM 
>To:  The Rhodes 22 Email List 
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes  Promotions 
>
>Deena, 
>
>Do you think an  inscribed ball point, one  worth keeping and using, would 
>make  sense?  We just need to 'blue sky'  this show... 
>
>I  stitched a miniature sail bag once, it was made of  actual sailcloth 
and  
>was embroidered.  Really quality you wouldn't pitch  in file  13.  Maybe 
an 
>embossed key chain with a small fiberglass piece  (of hull) as a hanger.   
>There must be soms scrap around  the GB  facility.  " You have a small 
part of 
>the boat, we  can deliver the rest  in a few months."  Let's stretch our  
>imagination over Stan  (SOS)! 
>
>Art  
>
>-----Original Message----- 
>>From:  captainpy at comcast.net 
>>Sent: Jul 29, 2009 4:56 PM  
>>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>Subject:  [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes  Promotions 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>Stan!!!!!!!!     
>> 
>>How about a  Rhodes 22 T-shirt That says "Ask me about my  Rhodes"  )On 
one  
>side a picture and on the other GB's web address?   
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>Deena AKA Captain Py   
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>   
>>----- Original  Message -----   
>>From: rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org  
>>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>Sent: Wednesday,  July 29, 2009 12:00:39 PM  GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
 
>>Subject: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1931,  Issue 1  
>> 
>>Send Rhodes22-list mailing list submissions to    
>>        rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org    
>> 
>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,  visit   
>>          http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list 
>>or, via  email,  send a message with subject or body 'help' to 
>>    rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org 
>> 
>>You  can reach the  person managing the list at 
>>      rhodes22-list-owner at rhodes22.org 
>> 
>>When  replying, please edit  your Subject line so it is more specific  
>>than "Re: Contents of  Rhodes22-list digest..." 
>>  
>> 
>>Today's Topics:   
>> 
>>  1. Re: Stuff that works - pest control solutions  (Jim Connolly)  
>>   2. Re: Fw:  general boat's dilema  (Arthur H.  Czerwonky) 
>>   3. Re: general boat's complaint  (continued) (stan) 
>>   4. Re: general boat's complaint  (continued) (stan) 
>>   5. Re: general boat's complaint  /in  all fairness (Lou Rosenberg) 
>>   6. Re: general  boat's  complaint /in all fairness 
>>      (Arthur H. Czerwonky)   
>>   7. Re: general boat's  complaint /in all fairness (Lowe,  Rob) 
>>   8.  Yellowstone Lake, Jackson Lake Sailing (Arthur H.  Czerwonky)    
>> 
>>  
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------  
>> 
>>Message: 1 
>>Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009  22:01:17 -0400   
>>From: "Jim Connolly"  <jbconnolly at comcast.net> 
>>Subject:  Re: [Rhodes22-list]  Stuff that works - pest control solutions 
>>To:  "'The Rhodes  22 Email List'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>    
>>Message-ID: <200907290201.n6T21ZTY022293 at raeid23.raenet.com>  
>>Content-Type: text/plain;          charset="us-ascii" 
>> 
>>I had hornets and wasps in the  coaming  right before launch, so I needed 
a 
>>fast solution.  
>> 
>>I found a non-toxic wasp killer spray  that is based on mint  oil 
("poison 
>>free" from Victor Pest  Control).  It took a whole  can, but seemed to 
>work.  
>>The smell repelled or confused returning  wasps, and those  that were 
home 
>>when I sprayed (at least some of them)  died.  
>> 
>>Jim Connolly 
>>s/v Inisheer 
>>  
>> 
>>-----Original Message----- 
>>From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org    
>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John Lock  
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:29 PM 
>>To: Rhodes  22   
>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stuff that works - pest control  solutions   
>> 
>>Last year I had a couple of pest  problems that many people  responded 
too 
>>with helpful  suggestions.  Here's what my results  were - 
>>  
>>1) Problem - spider webs in the rigging (especially  masthead  fly) 
>Solution - 
>>WD40.  I had the mast down early this  spring to fix several things.   
>Before 
>>raising  again, I sprayed  WD40 liberally on the masthead, Windex, VHF  
>>antenna, and diamond  stays.  So far (5 months  
>>later) not a single web!  Still get  them down lower  where I didn't 
spray, 
>so 
>>we know the spiders are still  there.  But they don't want to (or can't) 
>>start webs on  the WD40  treated portion. 
>> 
>>2) Problem - paper  wasps building nests under  the cockpit coaming 
>Solution -  
>>clothes drier sheets.  Middle of  last summer I stapled  a bunch of drier 
>>sheets into the wood backing up  under the  coaming on both sides.  No 
wasp 
>>nests have appeared in  almost a year now.  I see some more wasp activity 
>>now,  so I  suspect it's time to renew the sheets.  But that's a cheap 
and  
>>effective control. 
>> 
>>Now if only I  could figure out what  to do about the ants coming aboard 
>from  
>>shore....   
>> 
>>Cheers! 
>>John  Lock 
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   
>>s/v Pandion - '79  Rhodes 22 
>>Lake Sinclair, GA   
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>  
>>__________________________________________________ 
>>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to  
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list    
>>__________________________________________________    
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>------------------------------   
>>  
>>Message: 2 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:31:43 -0400 (EDT)  
>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>  
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fw:  general boat's  dilema   
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>   
>>Message-ID: 
>>   
><16092871.1248874303875.JavaMail.root at elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> 
 
>>         
>>Content-Type:  text/plain;  charset=UTF-8 
>> 
>>John, 
>>  
>>Welcome aboard the list  and your involvement.  This  fleet is strong for 
>the mix of its skippers  as well an  exceptional boat.  If you can come to 
the 
>show you'll have a  rather rare opportunity to meet many of them as we 
have 
>a  get-together in a  nearby restaurant, I can't remember what day that 
will  
>be this year - maybe we  should take a poll.  C'mon down and  enjoy!  You 
>will also see one of  the most exceptional  sailboat displays in the 
country.   
>Lee may have a  handle  on what is cooking locally, or Mary Lou and Fred 
may 
>know.  We  have alot of skippers in the North Chesapeake environs, let's  
>show the  flag.  BTW, is there an R22 burgee? 
>>  
>>Another option we  could use in helping GB is to followup on  inquiries 
on 
>the Rhodes from shows,  calls, or curious prospects  we may meet as our 
>marinas.  If local owners  are informed  about such prospects from Stan or 
other 
>owners, they could be  invited out on a sail or into a conversation about 
our 
>boat,  maybe about their  boat and/or sailing interests.  We get random  
>requests from wannabes,  maybe a more proactive initiative on our  part, 
done 
>tastefully, would develop  into prospects for Stan.  He can suggest names, 
>approach, interests  selectively to  get the ball/tide rolling.  A passive 
>approach will not  enhance sales prospects for GB. 
>> 
>>I share your  past interest in  the Mariner (#1607) and the O'Day boats 
>(222).  I haven't seen much  racing interest in our skippers, but welcome  
>correction if it is due.   Involvement in the racing is alot of  fun.  
Stan 
>suggested a strictly  racing R22 a few years ago,  maybe to be revived.  
Are you 
>IMF (probably)  or  Conventional?  What size Genny?  Have you raced out of 
>Brant  Beach, or is it mostly a cruising venue?  Which motor have you  
preferred? 
>  
>> 
>>We welcome your  involvement, John, and look forward to your  reply. 
>>  
>>Art 
>>s/v Mary Jane 
>>Hartwell and St Pete  
>> 
>> 
>>--Original Message-----  
>>>From: John  <johnrowland at optonline.net>  
>>>Sent: Jul 28, 2009 9:50 PM   
>>>To: The  Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>    
>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Fw:  general boat's dilema  
>>> 
>>> 
>>>----- Original  Message -----   
>>>From: "John"  <johnrowland at optonline.net> 
>>>To:  <rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org> 
>>>Sent:  Tuesday, July 28,  2009 9:01 PM 
>>>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema   
>>> 
>>>  
>>>>I have submitted one or two messages  to the list,  but would like to 
get 
>>>>more involved.  I  purchased a 1989 Rhodes22 about 1 year ago.  I have 
>raced  
>>>>Mariners years ago, owned a few O'Days, and never  found a boat  that I 
>enjoy 
>>>>more than this  one.  Heaven forbid General  Boats has problems.  There 
 
>is no 
>>>>owner loyalty, or  construction quality  (or--even more 
>important--customer   
>>>>service)  that compares with this company.  While I  probably cannot  
>attend 
>>>>the Annapolis Show, I need to know what  I (and other loyal owners) can 
>do 
>>>>to keep  this company strong.   
>>>> 
>>>> I have  been amazed at the discussions on  this list (with the 
exception  
>of 
>>>> the political issues  regarding the last  election).  My goodness, 
where 
>>>> else  can I  learn about how to sail more effectively and fix whatever 
   
>>>> problems I have on the boat.  I do not call a  customer  service 
number 
>that 
>>>> keeps me on  hold for hours--I talk to the  owner of the company!!  
>>>> 
>>>> I will not get  involved in  discussions regarding royalties, but do 
>think 
>>>>  that each of us owes Stan some support in keeping this boat alive.  
>>>> 
>>>> I am actually in a slip next  to a Hunter 40,  and I am happier with 
>this 
>>>>  boat. 
>>>>   
>>>> I read a lot of e-mails  from individuals who offer  suggestions about 
>other  
>>>> members issues and questions.   What better support  canone get than 
>this? 
>>>> 
>>>> I  keep the boat at a slip at the Brant Beach Yacht Club in Brant  
>Beach,   
>>>> New Jersey and look forward to  meeting other owners in the  area. 
>>>>  
>>>> John 
>>>> 
>>>>    
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From:  "Rick"  <sloopblueheron at gmail.com> 
>>>> To: "The  Rhodes 22 Email  List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>  
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July  28, 2009 7:24 PM  
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's  dilema  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> $1.97  
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009  at 2:21 PM,  Arthur H. Czerwonky < 
>>>>>  czerwonky at earthlink.net>  wrote: 
>>>>>  
>>>>>> Rick,   
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Good idea, buddy!   Somehow to add a unique  personal touch.  I 
would 
>add,   
>>>>>>  however, that Mary Lou really does not need to dance  on table tops 
 
>at 
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>>  Annapolis show.  Fred,  Pleassse! 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> I agree with the blazers, but, as we are  in  shoestring mode, what 
>about 
>>>>>> a  
>>>>>> Hanes T-shirt,  and of course,  hospitality hot  dogs with lots of 
>mustard  
>>>>>> and   
>>>>>> relish.  Seriously, I embroidered some nice  looking T-shirts for 
the  
>'07 
>>>>>> show, different color  each day,  some were 'Name, and 
rhodes22.com', 
>and 
>>>>>>  some were 'name, boomroom, rhodes22.com', each comma'd section 
above  
>the   
>>>>>> other.  They were noticed  by our visitors, never  a comment or 
>compliment  
>>>>>> otherwise.  You might  have to get used  to it... rhoadies are 
tough. 
>>>>>>    
>>>>>> Let's gel some more ideas for Stan to use.  At  least it engages the 
>>>>>> imagination  of the smart cookies  in our magnificent Rhodes fleet.  
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> No  commissions or royalty this time either,  guys.  What do you  
>charge, 
>>>>>> Rick?    
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Art  
>>>>>>  s/v Mary Jane 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> -----Original  Message----- 
>>>>>>  >From: Rick  <sloopblueheron at gmail.com> 
>>>>>>  >Sent:  Jul 28, 2009 2:00 PM 
>>>>>> >To: The Rhodes 22  Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>  
>>>>>>  >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general  boat's dilema   
>>>>>> >  
>>>>>> >Art,   
>>>>>> >  
>>>>>> >Using owners at  shows sounds like a  good idea.  Carver has 
success 
>with    
>>>>>> that 
>>>>>> >at the  Cleveland  show, dressing everyone up the same way in blue  
>>>>>>  >blazers. 
>>>>>>  > 
>>>>>> >I  doubt any mass media advertising  would have payback.  Since all 
>the    
>>>>>> major 
>>>>>> >sailing  magazines  have been pushing for so long the Catalina wave 
>that  
>>>>>>  >you 
>>>>>>  >start at 22 feet and buy up from there, a  GBI ad would be 
swamped.  
>>>>>> >Maybe   
>>>>>>  >direct mail to long-time owners on state and  Coast Guard sailboat 
 
>>>>>> >registration lists, pushing  the R22 as  a quality downsize option? 
>>>>>> >    
>>>>>> >Rick 
>>>>>> >    
>>>>>> >On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Arthur H.  Czerwonky < 
>>>>>>  >czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:   
>>>>>>  > 
>>>>>> >> John, Rob,    
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>> >>  You may  recall that Stan proposed a stripped down version, call 
 
>it a   
>>>>>> racing  
>>>>>> >> model, on  the list a few years  ago, and although I expressed 
>interest    
>>>>>> >> in 
>>>>>> >>  this  new boat option to him, maybe others too, no further  
>information   
>>>>>> was  
>>>>>> >> provided to my  knowledge.  Back at that time Stan expressed his 
>>>>>>  >> ability 
>>>>>> to  
>>>>>> >>  produce, and now maybe he will  further reconsider and tell us 
>more    
>>>>>> >> about 
>>>>>>  >> what  he had in mind.  I still am interested, speaking for  
myself 
>as a   
>>>>>> >> potential  buyer.  I will watch for any  response.  Did anyone 
get  
>>>>>> detailed   
>>>>>>  >> information on this boat?   
>>>>>>  >> 
>>>>>> >> I have  suggested the  value of baseline ad exposure.  If nothing 
>else,    
>>>>>> >> targeted reinforcement to the boat show  displays that are so 
>>>>>> >> important.  
>>>>>> >>  Maybe followup visits by  experienced  skippers.  I have been 
told 
>by  
>>>>>> >> one   
>>>>>>  of 
>>>>>> >> our newer  skippers that my 'hot  dog hospitality' aboard Mary 
Jane 
>at    
>>>>>> >> the 
>>>>>> '07  
>>>>>> >> show tipped the sale toward his  boat  purchase with him and his 
>wife.  
>>>>>>  BTW,   
>>>>>>  >> no commission provided or requested.   The presence of skippers  
at 
>the 
>>>>>> show    
>>>>>> >> is valuable - a third party evaluation  of  their own boat, and 
>with 
>>>>>>  >> 'no   
>>>>>> axe  
>>>>>> >> to  grind'.  Consider it for  yourself in support of Stan, as I 
did 
>   
>>>>>> >> twice. 
>>>>>>  >>  You would have one very positive impression of how GB and  a   
>huge 
>>>>>> >> number  
>>>>>> of   
>>>>>> >>  other boat makers reach their  customers.  Our skippers who are 
so  
>>>>>> willing to   
>>>>>>  >> give demos, whether at shows or not, are  such valuable  
>ambassadors 
>>>>>> >> for    
>>>>>> GB. 
>>>>>> >>  Having  done it a number of times, it is really fun as well as  
>being   
>>>>>> >> productive.  Try it, you'll like  it!  Let's be specific - Can 
>some  of 
>>>>>> you   
>>>>>>  >> skipper demos at Annapoli!   
>>>>>>  >>  s or St Pete or elsewhere?   
>>>>>>  >> 
>>>>>> >> Cutting to  the chase, who  has some real connections to options 
>and    
>>>>>> selling 
>>>>>> >>  /advertising connections that could help get Stan and GB out of  
>this   
>>>>>> 'black  
>>>>>> >> hole' that  the company appears to  be in?  It could be just a 
few   
>>>>>>  positive 
>>>>>> >> levers to  pull that would  enable better results, even in our 
>current    
>>>>>> puuuny 
>>>>>> >>  economy.  Who is willing to pen letters of endorsement to    
>>>>>> prospects/suspects 
>>>>>>  >>  that could tip the scales, one by one.   Time to get the  
horses 
>out   
>>>>>> >> of  
>>>>>> the   
>>>>>> >>  barn, guys. 
>>>>>>  >>  
>>>>>> >> Like Mark Twain or someone else  once said, let's get the P in 
our 
>>>>>> >>  Pot!   
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>>  >>  Respectfully, 
>>>>>> >>  
>>>>>>  >> Art 
>>>>>>  >> 
>>>>>>  >> -----Original  Message----- 
>>>>>> >>  >From: John  Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net> 
>>>>>>  >> >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 11:02 AM 
>>>>>>  >>  >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>>>>>  >>  >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint  
>(continued)   
>>>>>> >> >  
>>>>>> >> >   
>>>>>>  >> >Rob, 
>>>>>> >>  >  
>>>>>> >> >Yep that pretty much covers it. Now  what would the price point 
>be 
>>>>>>  >> >for   
>>>>>> such  
>>>>>> >> a   
>>>>>>  >> >boat? I have the origional literature  that came with my 71  
and 
>you 
>>>>>> should    
>>>>>> >> >see that show package special  price!!!   
>>>>>> >> >  
>>>>>> >>  >John S.  
>>>>>> >> > 
>>>>>>  >> > 
>>>>>> >> >Rob Lowe wrote:  
>>>>>> >> >>  
>>>>>> >>  >> Drop the IMF, ditch the  head, the water tank, the fancy 
motor   
>>>>>>  >> >> lift, 
>>>>>> and    
>>>>>> >> >> re-model the interior?  Now  you have my 1976 boat! I do have 
>>>>>>  >> >>  battery 
>>>>>> >> >>  though. - rob   
>>>>>> >> >>  
>>>>>> >>  >>  
>>>>>> >> >> -----Original Message-----  
>>>>>> >> >> From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org 
>>>>>> >>  >>  [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of 
John  
>>>>>> Shulick 
>>>>>>  >> >>  Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:52 AM  
>>>>>> >>  >> To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>>>>> >>  >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint  
>(continued)   
>>>>>> >> >>  
>>>>>> >>  >>  
>>>>>> >> >> Rick,    
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>>  >>  >> I see your point clearly on the subject but I also see  
Davids 
>idea   
>>>>>> >> >> of  
>>>>>>  >> >> options to increase  sales. How about dropping the IMF, ditch 
  
>the  
>>>>>> head, 
>>>>>> >>  >>  the 
>>>>>> >> >> on board  water tank, the  batteries, the fancy motor lift, 
>re-model  
>>>>>> the   
>>>>>> >>  >> interior and selling it as a "sport  model" My wife and I 
live  
>on 
>>>>>> >> >> the    
>>>>>> >> >> boat  
>>>>>>  >> >> almost every weekend and  find a porta potty and crank lights 
  
>>>>>>  sufficient. 
>>>>>> >>  >> Being a  camper before a sailor I have found the R22 to be a 
>first    
>>>>>> class 
>>>>>> >>  >>  floating campground without the pain of hiking in. I also 
have  
>had   
>>>>>> the  
>>>>>> >> >>  perverse pleasure one  weekend of sailing rings around a 
>macgregor    
>>>>>> >> >> 26 
>>>>>>  >> >> using 
>>>>>> >> >>  it like a  no wake buoy as the kids pleaded at their father 
to  
>make   
>>>>>> the  
>>>>>> >> >> mac    
>>>>>> >> >> go faster. Racer/Cruiser is  more  fun than Cruiser/Racer. 
Even 
>if  
>>>>>> you're   
>>>>>>  >> >> not 
>>>>>>  >> >>  racing its fun to be faster. 
>>>>>>  >>  >> 
>>>>>> >> >> Respectfully  submitted, 
>>>>>> >> >> John Shulick  
>>>>>> >> >>  
>>>>>> >>  >>  
>>>>>> >> >> Rick-139 wrote:    
>>>>>> >> >>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>> David,  
>>>>>> >> >>>    
>>>>>> >> >>> I hate to be the wet  blanket  again.  But racing sailboats 
is 
>a  
>>>>>> >>  >>> whole  
>>>>>> >> >>> 'nother    
>>>>>> >> >>> market.  The key to  convincing a customer to buy a sailboat 
>for  
>>>>>> racing   
>>>>>>  >> >> is 
>>>>>>  >> >>>  to 
>>>>>> >> >>>  convince him or  her that they will have lots of other 
>sailboats    
>>>>>> >> >>> to  
>>>>>>  >> >> race  
>>>>>> >> >>> against.    
>>>>>> >> >>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>> In the one design  game, it involves high volume  production 
>and a  
>>>>>> >> >>> distribution  system  that can execute geographically 
>concentrated  
>>>>>>  sales 
>>>>>> >>  >> and 
>>>>>>  >> >>> support.  J Boats has been successful doing that in the  
Great  
>>>>>> >> >>> Lakes    
>>>>>> >> >> with  
>>>>>>  >> >>> the  
>>>>>> >> >>> J 22  and other longer  models. Plus, J Boats has a 
respectable 
>   
>>>>>> history 
>>>>>> >>  >> of   
>>>>>> >> >>>  maintaining one design  integrity. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>   
>>>>>> >> >>> Of  course, there's always PHRF  racing.  But how many 20 - 
25  
>foot 
>>>>>> >>  >> cruising  
>>>>>> >> >>> sailboat  owners are  left with an interest in racing? 
>>>>>> >>  >>> 
>>>>>> >> >>> Unlike  30 years  ago, most people today who buy cruising or 
>day  
>>>>>>  sailing 
>>>>>>  >> >>> boats   
>>>>>> >>  >>> in the low 20's length are  first timers.  From there,  they 
>either 
>>>>>> drop    
>>>>>> >> >> out  
>>>>>>  >> >>> or they move to  larger boats more popular for cruising,   
>racing or  
>>>>>> >> >> both.    
>>>>>> >> >>> Catalina and Hunter have  turned  the market into that by 
>making  
>>>>>> >> >>>  cheap  
>>>>>> >> >>> starter    
>>>>>> >> >>> boats people can easily  abandon  for yachts.  Stan's main 
>problem  
>>>>>> >>  >>> is  
>>>>>> he 
>>>>>> >>  >> now 
>>>>>> >> >>> has a  product that  goes against the prevailing mindset that 
>has  
>>>>>> >>  >> evolved  
>>>>>> >> >>> for    
>>>>>> >> >>> his market.    
>>>>>> >> >>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>> Did you read the  article "The Little Boat that Could" in   
>August  
>>>>>> issue 
>>>>>> >>  >> of 
>>>>>> >> >>> Sailing?  The  title itself is a reflection of that mindset.  
  
>And   
>>>>>> >> >> despite  
>>>>>>  >> >>> all  
>>>>>> >> >>> kinds  of compliments  about the R22, the piece ends with:   
>"More    
>>>>>> >> >> important,  
>>>>>>  >> >>> where does one get a  new tiller for a Rhodes 22?"   That's 
>some  
>>>>>> insult 
>>>>>> >>  >> to a 
>>>>>> >> >>> builder  who has  admirably supported his product for 
decades.   
>But  
>>>>>> >> >> again,  
>>>>>>  >> >>> that's part of the  same mindset.   
>>>>>> >> >>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>> Rick  
>>>>>> >> >>>    
>>>>>> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at  1:04  PM, David Culp 
<dculp at hsbtx.com> 
>>>>>>  wrote:   
>>>>>> >> >>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Rick:  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> What I am saying  is that this boat is unique and I can't 
go   
>down  
>>>>>> >> >>>> to    
>>>>>> >> >> the  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> local boatyard  and get some of the major parts that  I 
might  
>>>>>> >> >>>> need.    
>>>>>> >> >> Also,  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> I  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  can't send an  email or make a phone call to the guy who 
>built    
>>>>>> >> >>>> the    
>>>>>> >> >> boat at  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> most places and  expect a response.  That's  probably worth 
 
>>>>>> >> >>>> something    
>>>>>> >> >> to 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> keep 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> the operation rolling as long as Stan does his part.  I   
>don't 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> think   
>>>>>> >> >>  you 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> ought to pay  royalty/loyalty if you don't get  anything 
for 
>it.  
>>>>>> >> >>>> If    
>>>>>> >> >> the  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> group  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> feels we are  getting something worth paying for, then I'm  
 
>just  
>>>>>> >> >> suggesting    
>>>>>> >> >>>> a  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> small stipend  annually to Stan which if everyone   
>participates  
>>>>>> >> >>>> might    
>>>>>> >> >> be a  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> better solution  then a percentage up front facing  new 
>owners for  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  loyalty/royalty.  The 5% on the seller side will figure 
into 
>the    
>>>>>> >> >> price  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> and  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> it gets the new  owner out of any obligation to pay a   
>>>>>>  royalty/loyalty 
>>>>>> >>  >> up  
>>>>>> >> >>>> front for two  years.  Then, continued association 
membership  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> will  
>>>>>> >> >>  require  
>>>>>> >> >>>> the annual dues.    
>>>>>> >> >>>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Imagine if you  bought a Ford or Chevy used and then  were 
>asked  
>>>>>> >> >>>> to    
>>>>>> >> >> send a  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> 5%  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> fee to the  factory.  Nobody would... but this is not a  
Ford 
>or  
>>>>>> Chevy. 
>>>>>> >>  >> I 
>>>>>> >> >>>> figure  some type  of ongoing support is probably reasonable 
>as  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> long  
>>>>>> as 
>>>>>>  >>  >> we 
>>>>>> >> >>>> get    
>>>>>> >> >>>> good owner support and  parts availability.  For example, if 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> someone 
>>>>>> >>  >> comes   
>>>>>> >> >>>>  along and hits my rudder in  the slip and I need a new one, 
>there  
>>>>>> >>  >> ought to  
>>>>>> >> >>>> be    
>>>>>> >> >>>> a spare waiting at the  factory to ship out.   If someone 
>blows a  
>>>>>>  sail 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> out,   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> there should be one ready  to ship and the right color  
too.   
>I 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> don't 
>>>>>> >> >>  know   
>>>>>> >> >>>> if  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> this is the case  at GBI because spare parts mean  overhead 
>and I  
>>>>>> don't 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> know 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> how much overhead Stan is willing to carry.  Maybe  parts   
>for 
>>>>>> >> >>  non-members   
>>>>>> >> >>>>  ought to carry a premium  that members don't have to pay-so 
 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> another  
>>>>>> >> >> added    
>>>>>> >> >>>> incentive to be one of  the  family. 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  
>>>>>> >> >>>> I hear what you  are saying  about the market.  Long term, 
>owners  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> are  
>>>>>> >> >> not    
>>>>>> >> >>>> going to be the ones to  keep GBI afloat.  You have got to 
>get  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> new  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  customers  
>>>>>> >> >>>> through the  door.  There have been a lot of good 
suggestions 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> given 
>>>>>> by    
>>>>>> >> >> a 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> lot 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> of  experienced people on the list.  My experiences  with 
>family   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> run   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> businesses are that we are  very happy to take your  money 
but 
>you 
>>>>>> can    
>>>>>> >> >> keep  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> your advice to  yourself.  However, Stan seems  open to 
some  
>>>>>> >> >> suggestions.    
>>>>>> >> >>>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Stan has an  excellent product, more people need to  know 
>about it  
>>>>>> >> >>>> as    
>>>>>> >> >>>> someone    
>>>>>> >> >>>> has mentioned.  A  new  boat is becoming cost prohibitive 
for 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> most, 
>>>>>> >>  >> the   
>>>>>> >> >>>>  recycling is a good second  market but I think you need a 
>"less  
>>>>>> >> >>  frills"  
>>>>>> >> >>>> model    
>>>>>> >> >>>> to get younger couples  through the doors.  You would have 
to 
>be  
>>>>>> able   
>>>>>> >>  >> to 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> build  it with the same quality, using the same molds  at 
an  
>>>>>> attractive 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> price 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  point and I don't know if that is possible.  I  thought 
maybe 
>a   
>>>>>> >> >>  stripped 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> down  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> racing version  might be a solution.  Racers don't need  
much 
>down  
>>>>>> >> >> below    
>>>>>> >> >>>> and    
>>>>>> >> >>>> will pay for quality  above.  The Rhodes is faster then a 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> Catalina 
>>>>>> to  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> being  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> with and that  would appeal to a lot of people.   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>>  Just my thoughts, 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  David 
>>>>>> >> >>>>    
>>>>>> >> >>>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>>>  
>>>>>> >> >>>>    
>>>>>> >> >>>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>>>  
>>>>>> >> >>>>    
>>>>>> >> >>>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Date: Sun, 26 Jul  2009 17:28:36 -0400   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> From: Rick  <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint   
>>>>>>  >> >>>> (continued)   
>>>>>>  >> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email  List  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> Message-ID: 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  
<52e9a140907261428v6feebf53l4e923711b987ec30 at mail.gmail.com>  
>  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1  
>>>>>> >> >>>>    
>>>>>> >> >>>> David,    
>>>>>> >> >>>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> When I was  considering buying my R22, the PO said,  "I can 
>give  
>>>>>> >> >>>> you    
>>>>>> >> >> the  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> home  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> phone number of  the guy who makes the boat and he will 
talk   
>to  
>>>>>> >> >>>> you    
>>>>>> at 
>>>>>> >> >>  any   
>>>>>> >> >>>> time."  Of course,  that tilted me to buy his boat and  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> subsequently  
>>>>>> >> >> buy    
>>>>>> >> >>>> many    
>>>>>> >> >>>> things from Stan.  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Are you  suggesting Stan discontinues this attractive   
>offering in  
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> shrunken marketplace for pocket cruiser sailboats?  I  
think 
>it 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> will   
>>>>>> >> >>  just 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> turn  customers toward high volume boats where  technical  
>>>>>> >> >>>> information    
>>>>>> >> >> and  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> spare parts are  readily available.   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>>  Rick 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  
>>>>>> >> >>>> On Sun,  Jul 26,  2009 at 4:49 PM, David Culp 
><dculp at hsbtx.com>    
>>>>>> wrote: 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > Stan:   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Thank you  for your  insight into the business.  I dare 
say 
>that  
>>>>>> most   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > sailboat   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > owners don't get the  inside track on happenings at  the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > factory;  
>>>>>> if   
>>>>>> >>  >> the 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> >  factory is even still in business that is.   
>>>>>>  >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > I want to comment on  the loyalty/royalty program  
>concerning 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > the 
>>>>>> >> >>  Rhodes.   
>>>>>> >> >>>>  My  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > experience  in boat  ownership over the years is that a 
used  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > boat  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  purchaser  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > always  spends the maximum funds set aside for the 
>purchase.    
>>>>>>  Either 
>>>>>>  >>  >> the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > purchase  price and the taxes consume the entire  amount 
or 
>the 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> > new 
>>>>>> >> >>  owner 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > takes  any funds  left and applies them to things the boat 
 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > needs.  
>>>>>> >> >> And we    
>>>>>> >> >>>> all    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > know that used  boats  need something all the time. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  It is a bit of a sticky wicket let's say, to  request 
from 
>a   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > new   
>>>>>> >>  >> owner 5 
>>>>>>  >> >>>>  % 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > of  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the purchase  price be paid to GBI when they have probably 
 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > spent  
>>>>>> >> >> more    
>>>>>> >> >>>> money    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > then they intended  to  begin with.  The Rhodes 22 is the 
>top of  
>>>>>> the   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> scale   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> in 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> > 22' boats and used prices are not cheap.   We see  it 
all 
>the 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  time   
>>>>>> on 
>>>>>>  >> >> the   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > list...  Folks  are interested in the Rhodes  but they 
are 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  trying 
>>>>>> to   
>>>>>>  >> >>>> purchase   
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > it on a "Catalina"  budget; so they "lurk"  on the list 
>either 
>>>>>> saving    
>>>>>> >> >> up 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > their 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> > cash or hoping to see a cheap boat come  up for sale   
>whereby 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > they   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> promptly   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > go   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > off-list and complete  the transaction.  
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > You will remember  in  my case, that I sent GBI a check 
for 
>$  
>>>>>> 200.00   
>>>>>>  >> >> to 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> cover 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > the promotional materials you sent me-but that was  not  
5% 
>of 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > the   
>>>>>> >> >> price  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> I  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > paid.  In the meantime, I have enjoyed the technical 
>support    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > that    
>>>>>> I 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  have 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > received as a  member of the list from the owners  and 
from 
>>>>>> yourself.    
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> That 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  is 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > worth something,  even though I didn't realize it  in the 
>>>>>> beginning.    
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> This 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  boat and this list are pretty unique to the  boating 
world. 
>  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > I propose and this  will make some people on this  list 
>unhappy, 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > in 
>>>>>> >> >>  fact,   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > very  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > unhappy....  An Owner's  association with an annual fee.   
>For  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > that  
>>>>>> >> >> annual    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > fee,    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > you have got to  provide something however.  Which is 
>another  
>>>>>>  >> >> problem  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  with  
>>>>>> >> >>>> a    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > royalty fee  upfront;  people always need to feel that 
they 
>are  
>>>>>> >>  >> getting  
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  something  for their money.   In this case, for the 
annual    
>>>>>> >> >> association    
>>>>>> >> >>>> fee:    
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Admission to the  list   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  Technical support  either from members or the factory  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > Availability  and a price list of parts, sails, etc. that 
  
>is  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > kept    
>>>>>> up 
>>>>>> >> >>  to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> date    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > so I can purchase  it  from you if I need something. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > Except for the parts  and prices, this is pretty  much 
what 
>we 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > are 
>>>>>> >> >>  doing   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  already.  Maybe  you could come up with some member 
>specials  on 
>>>>>>  >> >> pricing  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  from  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > time to time for  sails or parts or write an occasional 
>article  
>>>>>> that   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> only   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > members would  get.  I don't want to burden  you with a 
>bunch of 
>>>>>>  >>  >> extra 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  work, 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > but  there needs  to be something unique about membership. 
  
>In  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > this  
>>>>>> >> >>  way,  
>>>>>> >> >>>> the    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > new owner would  feel  they are getting something and it 
>would  
>>>>>> >>  >> generate  
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  revenue for  you over the longer term.  As part of the    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > membership,    
>>>>>> >> >> if we  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > agree to  give you 5% of the selling price when  we sell, 
>then I  
>>>>>> >> >> don't    
>>>>>> >> >>>> have    
>>>>>> >> >>>> a  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > problem with  it; especially if the list helps  my estate 
>sell  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the    
>>>>>> >> >> boat.  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> >  I'll  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > even  stipulate it in my will.  I figure if I owe a   
>"loyalty  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > fee",    
>>>>>> >> >> it is  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > probably to  the list members who have taken  their time 
>and  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > been    
>>>>>> so 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  helpful 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > over the  years.  If paying you a "royalty"  fee helps 
keep 
>GBI   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > in   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> business   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > then that helps them  and you.  As a seller,  if I pay 5% 
>then 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > it 
>>>>>> >> >>  gets my   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  buyer on the list free  for two years.  Then he/she can 
do  
>the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  responsible 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  thing and start paying their own royalty/loyalty dues.   
 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > The other  situation  which started the discussion in the  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > beginning  
>>>>>> >> >> has    
>>>>>> >> >>>> to  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> do  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > with  after-market products or other parts unique to the  
  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Rhodes.    
>>>>>>  If 
>>>>>> >>  >> a   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  member   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > has  an after-market  item to sell to the list which is 
>unique  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > to  
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> Rhodes 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > and/or would normally be available from GBI for  sale,   
>then 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > he/she   
>>>>>> >>  >> goes 
>>>>>>  >> >>>>  > through you.  They can advertise it and  discuss it; but 
I  
>buy 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  it 
>>>>>> >> >> from  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> you  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > after you  have added your mark up or it cannot be   
>advertised  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > on    
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > member's 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > list by another member or by a third party.  Simple  as 
>that. 
>>>>>>  They  
>>>>>> >>  >> are  
>>>>>> >> >>>> a    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > supplier of  General  Boats and you are the distributor to 
>me.  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> Obviously,  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > the  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > list  membership information is kept proprietary to 
prevent  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > direct  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> marketing  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > by a third  party.  If a member tries to go behind your 
>back...    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > we    
>>>>>> >> >> can  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> take  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > care of  that.  If something comes up for sale on  the  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > open-market    
>>>>>> >> >> that  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> is  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > unique to  the Rhodes 22 and there are legal issues, then 
  
>that  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > is    
>>>>>> a 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  > discussion for lawyers and not for this forum.  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> >  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > Right now  MJM is administering the list.  I think  he or 
 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > whomever    
>>>>>> >> >> takes  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> on  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > those duties  gets their membership free.   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > I hope you will take  these suggestions under  advisement 
>and if 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > it 
>>>>>> >> >>  is of   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  interest, let us know  what you think the annual 
membership 
>fee  
>>>>>> >>  >> should  
>>>>>> >> >>>> be.    
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > For everyone else,  let  the flaming begin....  But just 
>keep in  
>>>>>> mind   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> what   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > the   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > purpose is here.   Trying to come up with something  
>palatable 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  > to 
>>>>>> >> >> help    
>>>>>> >> >>>> GBI    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > now    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > and us in the long  run. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > David    
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > PS:    
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Other thoughts:  The Rhodes 22 website is "technically" 
>one of  
>>>>>> the   
>>>>>> >>  >> best 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> I  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > have ever  seen as far as the boat information goes.   
>However,    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > it    
>>>>>> >> >> needs  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> some  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > polish to be  a more effective marketing tool.  More   
>timely  
>>>>>> >> >> information    
>>>>>> >> >>>> and    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > more emphasis on  the  recycle program and availability of 
>used  
>>>>>> boats   
>>>>>>  >> >>>> comes   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > to   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > mind since new boat  sales are down.  Also,  have you 
ever 
>>>>>> considered    
>>>>>> >> >> a 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> new 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  "entry level"  boat without all the bells and  whistles 
>which   
>>>>>> >> >>  someone 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> could  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > purchase at  a bit lower price?  You've talked about  a 
>racer  
>>>>>> before. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  Could 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > you come up with something without having to have  new   
>>>>>> >> >> molds-marketed as  
>>>>>> >> >>>> a  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > "Sport"  Rhodes 22?   Lower the  interior weight, put a 
>standard  
>>>>>> mast   
>>>>>> >>  >> and 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> >  racing sails on it and a spinaker.   Catalina has a 
"sport  
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  model"  
>>>>>> >> >> and it    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > does    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > pretty well I  think.  Just some ideas I have batted 
>around. dc  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> >  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Date: Sat, 25 Jul  2009  13:46:52 -0400 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > From:  "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > Subject:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint   
>(continued)  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > To: "The  Rhodes 22 mail list" 
<rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Message-ID:  <038FA83D95464CCFB609CA722206B2D8 at rhodes>  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> >  Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="iso-8859-1"  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  Rose and I  want to thank you all for indulging GB in the 
>use    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of    
>>>>>> >> >> your  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> forum  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > on an issue  that is so basic to GB.   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > We want to thank those  that take issue with our  
position 
>but 
>>>>>> >>  >>  attempt to 
>>>>>> >> >>>> be    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > evenhanded.  (If  academically interested, we can provide  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > exhibits  
>>>>>> >> >> and    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > witnesses that  prove  the accuracy of our facts.) 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  > 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > We are empathetic  with those who chafe at this  sort of 
>thing 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > and 
>>>>>> >> >>  remain   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  silent - in our  younger days we probably would have done 
>the  
>>>>>> same.   
>>>>>>  >> >> It 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> was 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > not until 50 that we adopted our tribe's slogan of  
>"never 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > again"   
>>>>>> >> >> and  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> took  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > on anyone  who wronged us:  A policeman.  A  lawyer.  a  
>station 
>>>>>> wagon    
>>>>>> >> >>>> full    
>>>>>> >> >>>> of  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > nuns (just  kidding about the station wagon), a  giant 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > corporation   
>>>>>>  to 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > docketing  at the US Supreme Court.   We prevailed in all 
>these    
>>>>>> pro 
>>>>>> >>  >> se   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  actions simply because  we do not complain unless the 
facts 
>and  
>>>>>> >>  >> logic  
>>>>>> >> >>>> are    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > solidly on our  side -  but we digress. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > And, in particular, we  want to thank those who  
understand 
>the 
>>>>>> >>  >>  logical 
>>>>>> >> >>>> side    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of our position  and  offered suggestions. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > Re the issue of the  Loyalty/Royalty program:  Its 
>reasoning 
>>>>>>  seems  
>>>>>> >> >> so 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > correct that it is hard to comprehend  dissent.  Those 
>thinking 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> > us 
>>>>>> >>  >> crazy   
>>>>>> >> >>>>  for   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > such  radical thinking  have to sit in this chair for just 
>one  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > day.  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  >  Interestingly, dissenters enjoy products from many 
>segments of    
>>>>>> >> >> industry  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> who  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > have already  worked out such support programs, yet these 
   
>>>>>> dissenters 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> seem 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> to   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > be drawing their own  grandfather clause line as to  
which 
>>>>>> industries    
>>>>>> >> >>>> should    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > not be entitled to  residuals on their efforts.   Those in 
>this  
>>>>>>  >> >> group  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  have  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > but to request  and we will expand on the good sense of 
>this  
>>>>>> >>  >> program.  
>>>>>> >> >>>> It    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > has been  emotionally  gratifying seeing former members of 
>the  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > "You  
>>>>>> >> >> must    
>>>>>> >> >>>> be  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > crazy"  society, when, becoming members of the  "List" 
>family,  
>>>>>> seeing 
>>>>>>  >> >> the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  light and converting. 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > Re the issue of the 50  years creating a unique  product 
now 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  having 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> others  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > take bites  of its parts for their unilateral gain, if 
not    
>>>>>> resolved, 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> will 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  come home to bite us all.   ( When I walked  out of the  
 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  hallowed   
>>>>>> >> >> halls  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> of  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > ole  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > PU I vowed  not to go into business because I could not 
>stand    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the    
>>>>>> >> >> ethics  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> I  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > saw, and  assumed, had to go with that territory.  But it 
>was    
>>>>>> >> >>>> pre-ordained;    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > I    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > ended up spending  most  of my life a driving capitalist.  
 
>And  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > it  
>>>>>> >> >>  has  
>>>>>> >> >>>> been    
>>>>>> >> >>>> a  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > blast, for  me and my partner of 60 years -  because we 
>made the  
>>>>>> >> >> making    
>>>>>> >> >>>> of  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > money our  secondary goal.   (The  effects of that kind 
of  
>>>>>> religious   
>>>>>>  >> >>>> fervor   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > has surprisingly  turned out to be rough on our  
opponents.) 
>>>>>> There    
>>>>>> >> >> are  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> ways  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > we can go to  stop the taking of free bites of the   
>profitable  
>>>>>> parts 
>>>>>> >>  >> side 
>>>>>> >> >>>> of  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > GB's  business::   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > When we  sold Venture  Sailboats (Macgregor), dealers 
could 
>buy  
>>>>>> sails   
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > elsewhere and make an  additional profit  on Roger's 
>creation at 
>>>>>> >>  >> Roger's 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  >  expense.  Roger, who graduated at the top of his class 
at  
>>>>>> Stamford, 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> simply 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  > raised the price of his boat and included sails.  Being 
>the   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > tough   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> business   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > man he is, he did it  without notice and dealers  had to 
eat 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  their 
>>>>>> >> >> sail    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > inventories they  bought elsewhere.  We are slow learners 
>but  
>>>>>>  could 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> price   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > Rhodes sales to  include a part an outside seller  has 
>latched 
>>>>>> onto.    
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>>  >>  >>>> Or, 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > We could simply be  unresponsive to boat owners who  
>purchase 
>>>>>> parts,    
>>>>>> >> >>>> unique    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the Rhodes design,  from others in competition with GB or 
>who  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > fail  
>>>>>> >> >> to    
>>>>>> >> >>>> honor    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > agreements with  GB.   We inherently do not like this 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > retaliatory 
>>>>>>  >>  >> type 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> of   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > solution, but it is a  solution.   Or  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  >  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > We could simply  close shop and that would close the 
market 
>for  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> unauthorized  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > parts  vendors.   This "cutting off ones nose"  solution 
is 
>not  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > our    
>>>>>> >> >>>> choice.    
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  However, not  taking on rogue suppliers, eating away at 
>the  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > life  
>>>>>> >> >>  cash  
>>>>>> >> >>>> flow    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of the company,  makes  it an inevitable solution. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  > 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > In an effort to avoid  any of the above solutions,  based 
on 
>the 
>>>>>> >>  >>  thinking 
>>>>>> >> >>>> of    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > List members in  this  particular complaint of GB vs. Art 
C, 
>we  
>>>>>> have   
>>>>>> >>  >> some 
>>>>>>  >> >>>>  > proposals that we will present to the List next  week 
for  
>your 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  appreciated   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  feedback.  The  pro bono time we are having to devote to 
>the  
>>>>>> >>  >> problems  
>>>>>> >> >>>> and    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > questions of  private  sale Rhodes is becoming so 
>overwhelming  
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > (and  
>>>>>> >> >> we    
>>>>>> >> >>>> hate    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > be mean spirited  enough to tell them where to go) that we 
>just  
>>>>>>  >> >> can't  
>>>>>> >> >>>>  seem  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to    
>>>>>> >> >>>> > manage all of this  issue in one sitting. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > ss   
>>>>>> >>  >>>> >  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using  the 
>mailing  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > list    
>>>>>> go 
>>>>>> >> >>  to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > __________________________________________________  
>>>>>> >> >>>> >    
>>>>>> >> >>>>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> >>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  
mailing 
>list  
>>>>>> >> >>>> go    
>>>>>> >> >> to 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list    
>>>>>> >> >>>>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> >>>>  
>>>>>> >> >>>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> >>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  
mailing 
>list  
>>>>>> >> >>> go    
>>>>>> to 
>>>>>> >>  >>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>>>  >> >>>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> >>>  
>>>>>> >> >>>    
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>>  >>  >> -- 
>>>>>> >> >> View  this message in  context: 
>>>>>> >> >>  
>>>>>>  >> 
>>>>>>   
>http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660  
>>>>>> >> >> 048p24697834.html    
>>>>>> >> >> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing  list archive at Nabble.com. 
>>>>>> >>  >>   
>>>>>> >> >>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe  or for help with using the mailing  
 
>list  
>>>>>> >> >> go 
>>>>>>  to   
>>>>>> >> >>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>>> >>  >>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> >>  
>>>>>> >> >>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe  or for help with using the mailing  
 
>list  
>>>>>> >> >> go 
>>>>>>  to   
>>>>>> >> >>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>>> >>  >>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> >>  
>>>>>> >> >>    
>>>>>> >> > 
>>>>>>  >>  >-- 
>>>>>> >> >View this  message in context:   
>>>>>> >>  
>>>>>>    
>http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048
p24700483.html  
>>>>>> >> >Sent from the Rhodes 22  mailing list  archive at Nabble.com. 
>>>>>>  >> >   
>>>>>> >>  >__________________________________________________    
>>>>>> >> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help  with using the mailing 
list 
>go 
>>>>>>  >> >to   
>>>>>> >>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>>> >>  >__________________________________________________    
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>> >>  
>>>>>> >>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for  help with using the mailing 
list 
>go    
>>>>>> >> to 
>>>>>> >>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>>> >>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>  >> 
>>>>>>  >__________________________________________________    
>>>>>> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with  using  the mailing list 
go 
>to 
>>>>>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>>>  >__________________________________________________    
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with  using the mailing list 
go 
>to   
>>>>>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>>>  __________________________________________________  
>>>>>>   
>>>>>  __________________________________________________    
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing list go 
>to 
>>>>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>>  __________________________________________________   
>>>>  
>>>    
>>>__________________________________________________  
>>>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing list go to 
  
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list    
>>>__________________________________________________    
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>------------------------------   
>>  
>>Message: 3 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:43:04 -0400  
>>From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com> 
>>Subject:  Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued) 
>>To:  "The Rhodes  22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>  
>>Message-ID:  <1BA7BBD3036947F289B013E52D813110 at rhodes>  
>>Content-Type:  text/plain; format=flowed;  charset="iso-8859-1"; 
>>       reply-type=original  
>> 
>>I guess this is a dear John letter    
>> 
>>John Shulick, 
>> 
>>That does not  sound like the  Stan I know.   I know I do not ignore the  
>good 
>>guys or the  bad guys (well maybe with one  exception or two) and I do 
know 
>I 
>>do not  get all my  e-mails and that some of my e-mail does not get 
through 
>as    
>>was currently the case with everyone using comcast.net.    
>> 
>>While I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which  one you  are, please 
>do 
>>not feel slighted because  
>>at my age I have  trouble remembering if there are any Stands  on the 
list. 
>> 
>>I do  note that you say you have a  71 Rhodes (almost even before my 
time) 
>and   
>>I do  know that when I get an e-mail from someone indicating wanting to   
 
>put a 
>>lot of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built  (and not  built by 
>us) I 
>>try very had to discourage  them from pouring money into  it with the 
>advice 
>>to  just sail it as is and when ready, get a more  recent model since the 
 
>>differences are so drastic. 
>> 
>>I  also  note that you say we did sell you parts implying what you got 
was 
>not  
>>satisfactory but note that you did not say that we always  tell whole  
boat 
>>and parts buyers that everything from us is  returnable.   Did you send 
>back 
>>any faulty  parts - if not,  please do. 
>> 
>>ss 
>>  
>>----- Original Message -----   
>>From: "John  Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net> 
>>To:  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28,  2009 1:39  PM 
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's  complaint (continued)   
>> 
>> 
>>>  
>>> Ben, 
>>> 
>>> I  think the  demise of the demise of the US auto industry has many 
>complex    
>>> factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not  shure 
>>> whether 
>>> it was the decisive  factor in their  fall. As for the cost and what 
the 
>>>  price 
>>> point would  be for a "sport model".  GB  would have to make that 
>>>  determination. Stan does not  seem to notice or respond to any posts I 
  
>>> place  
>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat  on Ebay  and not 
through 
>>> him. 
>>> After buying my boat I  approached him for a rudder and inquired about 
>some  
>>> various small  parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly  with a tiller 
>for 
>>>  $750.00 The tiller had a  crack at the end bolted to the rudder (but   
>>> usable)  
>>> and I had to seal and paint the blade  myself. The  request for small 
>parts 
>>> was ignored. Since I can take  a hint I now go to other sources for my 
>mast 
>>>  parts, trailer parts  (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle this week as  
>part 
>>> of   
>>> my trailer overhaul  this is an exact replacement part not an   
>equivilent) ,  
>>> and sails. Stan has lost over $2,000 in potential  sales  to me and by 
>the 
>>> time my 71 restoration is finished  he will  probably loose $2,000 
more. 
>I 
>>> still am  in the market for a 150  Genoa and a furler plus a complete 
set  
>of 
>>> standing rigging and  hardware. Like yourself  I'm looking for parts 
and 
>>> accessories at  a fair and  resonable price and will find or make them 
as 
>>> needed.    
>>> 
>>> John S 
>>> 
>>>  
>>>   
>>> John; 
>>> You're  referring to the old US car  manufacturers technique known as  
>"the 
>>> pizza principle". Sell the  basic model for  a decent price but add on 
an 
>>> outrageous markup  for each  option. The Japanese kicked our butts when 
>they 
>>> put  all  the good stuff in every car and the only choice was color.  
>>>   
>>> I don't think the stripped down  racing Rhodes would be that much  less 
>>> expensive to  build, or that much cheaper to sell, but then  I'm not 
>>>  building 
>>> or selling boats, or cars.   
>>>  
>>> I just want to know where I can get parts and/or  accessories without 
>>> losing 
>>> a friend,  if I can help  it, and if it's fair and reasonable. 
>>>  
>>> BenCittadino   
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> View this  message  in context: 
>>>    
>http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048
p24704459.html  
>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at  Nabble.com.   
>>> 
>>>  __________________________________________________   
>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list  go 
to  
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>  __________________________________________________   
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------    
>> 
>>Message: 4 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009  09:49:10 -0400   
>>From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>  
>>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint  (continued) 
>>To: "The Rhodes  22 Email List"  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Message-ID:  <1D4BA299E8024EB6A63F0999A9BD8ED3 at rhodes>  
>>Content-Type:  text/plain; format=flowed;  charset="iso-8859-1"; 
>>       reply-type=original  
>> 
>>even my typing is getting sloppy -    
>> 
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "stan"  <stan at rhodes22.com> 
>>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29,  2009 9:43  AM 
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's  complaint (continued)   
>> 
>> 
>>>I guess  this is a dear John letter 
>>>   
>>> John  Shulick, 
>>> 
>>> That does not sound like  the  Stan I know.   I know I do not ignore 
the 
>>> good    
>>> guys or the bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two)  and I  do 
>know 
>>> I 
>>> do not get all  my e-mails and that some of  my e-mail does not get 
>through  
>>> as 
>>> was currently the  case with  everyone using comcast.net. 
>>> 
>>> While I have a  lot of Johns and do not recall which one you are, 
please 
>do  
>>> not  feel slighted because 
>>> at my age I  have trouble remembering if  there are any Stands on the 
>list.  
>>> 
>>> I do note that you  say you have a 71  Rhodes (almost even before my 
>time) 
>>> and    
>>> I do know that when I get an e-mail from someone indicating  wanting to 
>put 
>>> a 
>>> lot of money  into one of the first  Rhodes ever built (and not built 
by 
>us)  
>>> I 
>>> try very  had to discourage them from  pouring money into it with the 
>advice 
>>>  to just  sail it as is and when ready, get a more recent model since 
the 
>   
>>> differences are so drastic. 
>>> 
>>>  I also note  that you say we did sell you parts implying what you got  
>was 
>>> not   
>>> satisfactory but note  that you did not say that we always tell  whole 
>boat  
>>> and parts buyers that everything from us is  returnable.  Did you send 
>>> back 
>>> any faulty  parts - if not, please do. 
>>> 
>>> ss  
>>>   
>>> ----- Original Message -----  
>>> From: "John Shulick"  <jsbudda at verizon.net>  
>>> To:  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009  1:39 PM 
>>> Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint  (continued) 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Ben,    
>>>> 
>>>> I think the demise of the demise of  the US  auto industry has many 
>complex 
>>>>  factors in it and while they  used the pizza principle I'm not shure  
>>>> whether   
>>>> it was the decisive  factor in their fall. As for the cost and  what 
the 
>>>>  price 
>>>> point would be for a "sport  model".  GB  would have to make that 
>>>> determination. Stan  does  not seem to notice or respond to any posts 
I 
>>>> place    
>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay  and  not 
through 
>>>> him. 
>>>> After  buying my boat I  approached him for a rudder and inquired 
about  
>>>> some   
>>>> various small parts. He  sold me a used rudder assembly with a  tiller 
>for  
>>>> $750.00 The tiller had a crack at the end bolted  to  the rudder (but 
>>>> usable) 
>>>> and I had to  seal  and paint the blade myself. The request for small 
>parts  
>>>> was  ignored. Since I can take a hint I now go to  other sources for 
my   
>>>> mast 
>>>>  parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a  new Dexter axle this week as 
 
>part 
>>>> of 
>>>> my  trailer  overhaul this is an exact replacement part not an 
>equivilent)    
>>>> , 
>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over  $2,000 in  potential sales to me and by 
>the 
>>>>  time my 71 restoration is  finished he will probably loose $2,000 
more.  
>I 
>>>> still am in  the market for a 150 Genoa  and a furler plus a complete 
>set 
>>>>  of  
>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself I'm looking  for parts 
and 
>>>> accessories at a fair and resonable  price and  will find or make them 
>as 
>>>> needed.  
>>>>   
>>>> John S 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>> John;  
>>>> You're referring to the old US car  manufacturers  technique known as 
>"the 
>>>> pizza principle". Sell  the basic model for a decent price but add on 
>an  
>>>> outrageous  markup for each option. The Japanese  kicked our butts 
when 
>>>>  they 
>>>> put  all the good stuff in every car and the only choice  was color.  
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think the stripped down  racing Rhodes would be that much less 
>>>> expensive to  build, or  that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not  
>>>> building   
>>>> or selling boats, or  cars. 
>>>> 
>>>>  I just want to know  where I can get parts and/or accessories without 
  
>>>>  losing 
>>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if  it's fair  and reasonable. 
>>>> 
>>>> BenCittadino    
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> --   
>>>> View this message in  context: 
>>>>    
>http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048
p24704459.html  
>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at  Nabble.com.   
>>>> 
>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>  To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go 
to  
>  
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list  
>>>>  __________________________________________________  
>>> 
>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to 
 
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>  __________________________________________________   
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------    
>> 
>>Message: 5 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009  10:11:31 -0400   
>>From: Lou Rosenberg <lsr3 at nyu.edu>  
>>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in  all fairness 
>>To: The  Rhodes 22 Email List  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Message-ID:  <8ADB74E6-CF8C-4B63-B1BE-199E3A0F2676 at nyu.edu>  
>>Content-Type:  text/plain;        charset=US-ASCII;       delsp=yes;      
  
> format=flowed   
>> 
>>Rhodes owners,  wanna be owners, and lurkers like me,   
>> 
>>I bought  my R22 from a discouraged owner who had not taken  care of    
>>the boat and was basically dumping it in the back  of  
>>a Pt Jefferson yard back in '04. I had been on the list for about  a   
>>year before this and Stan advised me NOT to buy  that  boat. 
>>I went against his advice and through the years ,  Stan and Elton  have   
>>helped me greatly.  I ended  up only buying about  $1500, worth of 
rigging 
>>and supplies on  a visit to Edenton NC in 2005,  but subsequently Elton   
 
>>brought up a much needed used   bow pulpit and new traveler  assembly   
>>to my yard a few yrs  later. 
>>  
>>In all fairness I have not bought that much from GB  over the  years   
>>but trust their judgement and of course  Stan  was right, I should've   
>>waited and I may've found    
>>a better deal.  Restoring any boat is NOT that much fun but  there  are   
>>rewards of doing it yourself, but sailing  is the  eventual goal and   
>>ive sacrificed many sailing  days to get  where I am now. 
>> 
>>I owe so much to  all the people on this list  ALL of you helping me   
>>out  with questions for this novice  sailor who has few skills in terms   
 
>>of carpentry,  fibreglassing 
>>and the like.  Next Thurs I hope to launch Miracles  for the rest of    
>>the year, keeping her in the calm,  semi-polluted waters of  Mill Basin   
>>all winter long.   
>>  
>>wish me luck , I'll need it. 
>> 
>>Stan, maybe  its  time to bring in new blood and find a way to accept    
>>some  sort of retirement from all this grind? 
>>  
>>all the best   
>>and thanks for all your help  
>> 
>>Lou Rosenberg 
>>s/v  Miracles  
>>On Jul 29, 2009, at 9:43 AM, stan wrote: 
>>  
>>>  I guess this is a dear John letter 
>>>  
>>> John Shulick,   
>>> 
>>> That  does not sound like the Stan I  know.   I know I do not ignore  
>>> the good   
>>> guys or the bad guys  (well maybe with one exception or two) and  I   
>>> do  know I 
>>> do not get all my e-mails  and that some of my  e-mail does not get   
>>> through as   
>>>  was currently the case with everyone using comcast.net.    
>>> 
>>> While I have a lot of Johns and do not  recall which  one you are,   
>>> please do  
>>> not feel slighted  because 
>>> at my age I  have trouble remembering if there are any  Stands on the   
 
>>> list. 
>>> 
>>> I do  note that  you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my    
  
>>> time) and 
>>> I do know that when I get an  e-mail from  someone indicating wanting   
>>> to put a  
>>> lot  of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built  (and not built   
  
>>> by us) I 
>>> try  very had to discourage them from  pouring money into it with the   
 
>>> advice 
>>> to  just sail it as is and when  ready, get a more recent model since   
  
>>> the  
>>> differences are so drastic. 
>>>    
>>> I also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what  you   
>>> got was not 
>>> satisfactory  but note  that you did not say that we always tell    
>>> whole boat   
>>> and parts buyers that  everything from us is  returnable.   Did you   
>>>  send back   
>>> any faulty parts - if not, please do.  
>>> 
>>>  ss 
>>> 
>>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From:  "John Shulick"  <jsbudda at verizon.net> 
>>> To:  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July  28, 2009  1:39 PM 
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general  boat's complaint  (continued) 
>>> 
>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Ben,   
>>>>  
>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US  auto  industry has many   
>>>> complex 
>>>>  factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not shure  
>>>> whether 
>>>> it was the decisive  factor in their  fall. As for the cost and what   
 
>>>> the   
>>>> price  
>>>> point would be for a "sport  model".  GB would  have to make that 
>>>> determination. Stan  does not seem  to notice or respond to any posts 
I 
>>>> place    
>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay  and  not   
>>>> through 
>>>> him.  
>>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder  and  inquired   
>>>> about some 
>>>>  various  small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a    
>>>> tiller for 
>>>> $750.00 The tiller  had a crack at  the end bolted to the rudder (but 
>>>>  usable) 
>>>>  and I had to seal and paint the blade  myself. The request for     
>>>> small parts  
>>>> was ignored. Since I can take a  hint I now go to  other sources for   
>>>> my mast    
>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle  this  week   
>>>> as part 
>>>> of  
>>>>  my trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement  part not an     
>>>> equivilent) ,  
>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over  $2,000 in potential  sales to me and   
>>>> by the   
>>>>  time my 71 restoration is finished he will probably loose  $2,000    
>>>> more. I 
>>>> still am in the  market  for a 150 Genoa and a furler plus a   
>>>>  complete  set of 
>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself  I'm looking for parts   
>>>> and  
>>>>  accessories at a fair and resonable price and will  find or make     
>>>> them as 
>>>>  needed. 
>>>>   
>>>> John S  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>    
>>>> John; 
>>>> You're referring to the old US  car  manufacturers technique known   
>>>> as "the  
>>>> pizza principle". Sell the basic model for a  decent price but  add   
>>>> on an  
>>>> outrageous markup for  each option. The Japanese  kicked our butts   
>>>> when  they  
>>>> put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice  was color. 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think the  stripped down  racing Rhodes would be that much 
less 
>>>>  expensive to build, or  that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not  
>>>> building   
>>>> or selling boats, or  cars. 
>>>> 
>>>>  I just want to know  where I can get parts and/or accessories without 
  
>>>>  losing 
>>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if  it's fair  and reasonable. 
>>>> 
>>>> BenCittadino    
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> --   
>>>> View this message in  context: 
>>>>  http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-    
>>>> tp24660048p24704459.html 
>>>> Sent from  the  Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
>>>>  
>>>> __________________________________________________  
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using  the mailing  list   
>>>> go to 
>>>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>  
>>>  __________________________________________________  
>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing list go   
  
>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list  
>>>  __________________________________________________  
>> 
>>Lou  Rosenberg 
>>Videographer  
>> 
>>Steinhardt School of Culture,  Education and  
>>Human Development at NYU 
>> 
>>239 Greene  Street, Room 315 
>>lsr3 at nyu.edu 
>> 
>>(212)  998-5122   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------    
>> 
>>Message: 6 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009  11:04:28 -0400 (EDT)   
>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky"  <czerwonky at earthlink.net>   
>>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all fairness   
 
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>  
>>Message-ID: 
>>          
><25945721.1248879868382.JavaMail.root at elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> 
 
>>         
>>Content-Type:  text/plain;  charset=UTF-8 
>> 
>>Lou, 
>>  
>>My guess is retirement in  10-15 years, although I marvel at  his, 
Rose's, 
>and Elton's energy in this  business arena.  The composite support effort 
I 
>have seen by Rhoadies to  help other fleet skippers is incredible, and 
will 
>become even  more vital in  the years ahead.  As parts and accessories may 
 
>become less available, I,  for one, have been keeping my eye out  for 
>alternatives.  As I discovered  a year ago, the spreader  brackets are 
available from 
>Dwyer  (I'd keep a  close eye on  your's if they become distorted with 
mast 
>stepping using the old  GB method).   The alternative transom crutch I use 
>and  posted can be  fabricated by a SS shop I have done work with.  
>> 
>>I have been  told that replacement parts is one  of the greatest concerns 
>of fleet skippers  if we cannot obtain  from GB, a problem I encountered 
as 
>long as two years  ago.  I have usually been able to find a substitute as 
>necessary.  Maybe we can delay Stan's retirement until 20 years! 
>>  
>>Art   
>> 
>>-----Original Message-----  
>>>From: Lou Rosenberg  <lsr3 at nyu.edu>  
>>>Sent: Jul 29, 2009 10:11 AM 
>>>To:  The  Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>    
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all  fairness 
>>> 
>>>Rhodes owners, wanna be  owners, and lurkers  like me, 
>>> 
>>>I bought  my R22 from a discouraged owner who  had not taken care of    
>>>the boat and was basically  dumping it in the back of  
>>>a Pt Jefferson yard back in '04. I had  been on the list  for about a   
>>>year before this and Stan  advised me  NOT to buy that boat. 
>>>I went against his advice and  through the years , Stan and Elton have   
>>>helped me  greatly.  I ended up only buying about $1500, worth of 
rigging  
>  
>>>and supplies on a visit to Edenton NC in 2005,  but subsequently  Elton  
 
>>>brought up a much needed  used  bow pulpit  and new traveler assembly    
>>>to my yard a few yrs later.   
>>>  
>>>In all fairness I have not bought that much from GB  over  the years   
>>>but trust their judgement and of course  Stan was right, I should've   
>>>waited and I may've  found   
>>>a better deal.  Restoring any boat is NOT  that much fun but  there are  
 
>>>rewards of doing it  yourself, but sailing is  the eventual goal and    
>>>ive sacrificed many sailing days  to get where I am now.  
>>> 
>>>I owe so much to all the  people on this  list ALL of you helping me   
>>>out with  questions for  this novice sailor who has few skills in terms  
    
>>>of carpentry, fibreglassing 
>>>and the like.  Next  Thurs I hope to launch Miracles for the rest of    
>>>the  year, keeping her in the calm, semi-polluted waters  of Mill Basin  
   
>>>all winter long. 
>>>  
>>>wish me luck , I'll need  it. 
>>>  
>>>Stan, maybe its time to bring in new blood and  find a  way to accept   
>>>some sort of retirement from all  this grind? 
>>> 
>>>all the best  
>>>and thanks for  all your help 
>>>  
>>>Lou Rosenberg 
>>>s/v Miracles    
>>>On Jul 29, 2009, at 9:43 AM, stan wrote: 
>>>  
>>>> I guess this is a dear John letter  
>>>>   
>>>> John Shulick,  
>>>> 
>>>> That does not  sound like the  Stan I know.   I know I do not ignore   
  
>>>>  the good 
>>>> guys or the bad guys (well maybe  with one  exception or two) and I   
>>>> do know I    
>>>> do not get all my e-mails and that some of my e-mail does  not  get   
>>>> through as 
>>>> was  currently the  case with everyone using comcast.net. 
>>>>  
>>>> While  I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which  one you are,     
>>>> please do 
>>>>  not feel slighted because   
>>>> at my age I have trouble  remembering if there are any Stands  on the  
 
>>>>  list. 
>>>> 
>>>> I  do note that you say  you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my   
  
>>>>  time) and 
>>>> I do know that when I get an  e-mail from  someone indicating wanting  
 
>>>> to put a    
>>>> lot of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built (and  not  built  
 
>>>> by us) I 
>>>> try  very had to  discourage them from pouring money into it with the  
  
>>>> advice 
>>>> to just sail it as is  and when ready,  get a more recent model since  
  
>>>> the   
>>>> differences are so  drastic. 
>>>> 
>>>>  I also note that you  say we did sell you parts implying what you     
>>>>  got was not 
>>>> satisfactory but note that you  did not  say that we always tell   
>>>> whole boat    
>>>> and parts buyers that everything from us is  returnable.   Did you   
>>>> send back    
>>>> any faulty parts - if not, please do.  
>>>>   
>>>> ss 
>>>>  
>>>> ----- Original Message  ----- 
>>>>  From: "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net>   
>>>>  To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>>> Sent:  Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:39 PM 
>>>> Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list]  general boat's complaint (continued)  
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>>>  
>>>>> Ben, 
>>>>>    
>>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US auto  industry  has many   
>>>>> complex  
>>>>> factors  in it and while they used the pizza  principle I'm not shure 
  
>>>>> whether  
>>>>> it was the decisive factor  in their fall. As  for the cost and what  
 
>>>>> the    
>>>>> price 
>>>>> point would be for a  "sport  model".  GB would have to make that 
>>>>>  determination.  Stan does not seem to notice or respond to any posts 
I  
>>>>>  place 
>>>>> on this Forum  perhaps because I bought my boat on  Ebay and not    
>>>>> through 
>>>>>  him.  
>>>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder  and inquired   
>>>>> about some  
>>>>>  various small parts. He sold me a used rudder  assembly with a     
>>>>> tiller for  
>>>>> $750.00 The tiller had a  crack at the end  bolted to the rudder (but 
>>>>> usable)    
>>>>> and I had to seal and paint the blade myself. The  request  for   
>>>>> small parts  
>>>>> was  ignored. Since I can take a hint I now go  to other sources for  
   
>>>>> my mast  
>>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am  bolting on a new  Dexter axle this week   
>>>>> as  part  
>>>>> of 
>>>>> my trailer overhaul this  is  an exact replacement part not an   
>>>>>  equivilent)  , 
>>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over  $2,000 in potential sales  to me and   
>>>>> by  the 
>>>>> time my  71 restoration is finished he will  probably loose $2,000    
 
>>>>> more. I  
>>>>> still am in the market for a  150 Genoa and a  furler plus a   
>>>>> complete set of    
>>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself I'm  looking  for parts  
 
>>>>> and  
>>>>>  accessories at a fair and resonable price and  will find or make     
>>>>> them as  
>>>>> needed. 
>>>>>    
>>>>> John S 
>>>>>  
>>>>>   
>>>>>  
>>>>> John; 
>>>>> You're  referring  to the old US car manufacturers technique known    
  
>>>>> as "the 
>>>>> pizza principle".  Sell the  basic model for a decent price but add   
 
>>>>> on an   
>>>>> outrageous  markup for each option. The Japanese kicked  our butts    
>>>>> when they 
>>>>> put  all the  good stuff in every car and the only choice was color.  
  
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't think the stripped  down  racing Rhodes would be that much 
less 
>>>>>  expensive to build,  or that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not  
>>>>> building   
>>>>> or selling  boats, or cars. 
>>>>>   
>>>>> I  just want to know where I can get parts and/or  accessories 
without  
>>>>> losing 
>>>>> a friend,  if I  can help it, and if it's fair and reasonable. 
>>>>>    
>>>>> BenCittadino 
>>>>>  
>>>>>   
>>>>>  
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> View this  message  in context: 
>>>>>  http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-    
>>>>> tp24660048p24704459.html 
>>>>>  Sent from  the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.  
>>>>>   
>>>>>  __________________________________________________    
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing list   
>>>>> go to  
>>>>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list  
>>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>  
>>>> __________________________________________________  
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using  the mailing  list go  
 
>>>> to  http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>  __________________________________________________   
>>>  
>>>Lou Rosenberg 
>>>Videographer 
>>>  
>>>Steinhardt School of Culture, Education and  
>>>Human  Development at NYU 
>>>  
>>>239 Greene Street, Room 315    
>>>lsr3 at nyu.edu 
>>> 
>>>(212) 998-5122  
>>>   
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>>__________________________________________________  
>>>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing list go to 
  
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list    
>>>__________________________________________________    
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>------------------------------   
>>  
>>Message: 7 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:05:27 -0400  
>>From: "Lowe, Rob" <rlowe at vt.edu> 
>>Subject:  Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all fairness  
>>To: "The  Rhodes 22 Email List"  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Message-ID:   
>>   <7A5B57319AFF9D4A8060949F2E724D5E02B8B38D at mirkwood.cc.w2k.vt.edu>  
>  
>>Content-Type: text/plain;        charset="us-ascii" 
>> 
>>Lou, 
>>Good luck  to you!  It's  been fun following along with your trials and  
>>progress over the  years.  I could have done what you  have done, I'm 
glad 
>>my '76 was  sailable from day one.  
>> 
>>Now where is Mill Basin and Rockaway  Inlet  exactly?  I'm hunting on 
>>yahoo maps and you're in the New  York area?? - Rob 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>-----Original Message-----   
>>From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org    
>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Lou  Rosenberg   
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 10:12 AM  
>>To: The Rhodes 22  Email List 
>>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in  all fairness 
>>  
>>Rhodes owners, wanna be owners, and lurkers like  me,  
>> 
>>I bought my R22 from a discouraged owner who had not  taken  care of   
>>the boat and was basically dumping it  in the back  of 
>>a Pt Jefferson yard back in '04. I had been  on the list for about  a   
>>year before this and Stan  advised me NOT to buy that  boat. 
>>I went against his advice  and through the years , Stan and Elton  have   
>>helped me  greatly.  I ended up only buying about  $1500, worth of 
rigging  
>>and supplies on a visit to Edenton NC in 2005,  but  subsequently Elton   
>>brought up a much needed used   bow  pulpit and new traveler assembly   
>>to my yard a few yrs  later. 
>> 
>>In all fairness I have not bought that  much from GB  over the years   
>>but trust their judgement  and of course  Stan was right, I should've   
>>waited and  I may've found   
>>a better deal.  Restoring any boat is  NOT that much fun but there  are   
>>rewards of doing it  yourself, but sailing is the  eventual goal and   
>>ive  sacrificed many sailing days to get  where I am now. 
>>  
>>I owe so much to all the people on this list  ALL of you  helping me   
>>out with questions for this novice  sailor  who has few skills in terms   
>>of carpentry,  fibreglassing 
>>and the like.  Next Thurs I hope to  launch Miracles  for the rest of   
>>the year, keeping her  in the calm,  semi-polluted waters of Mill Basin   
>>all  winter long.   
>> 
>>wish me luck , I'll need it.  
>> 
>>Stan, maybe its  time to bring in new blood and  find a way to accept   
>>some  sort of retirement from all  this grind? 
>> 
>>all the best   
>>and  thanks for all your help 
>> 
>>Lou Rosenberg  
>>s/v  Miracles 
>>On Jul 29, 2009, at 9:43 AM, stan  wrote: 
>> 
>>>  I guess this is a dear John letter  
>>> 
>>> John Shulick,   
>>>  
>>> That does not sound like the Stan I  know.   I know  I do not ignore   
>>> the good   
>>> guys  or the bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two) and  I    
>>> do know I 
>>> do not get all my e-mails  and that some of my e-mail does not get   
>>> through  as   
>>> was currently the case with everyone using  comcast.net.   
>>> 
>>> While I have a lot of  Johns and do not recall which  one you are,   
>>>  please do 
>>> not feel slighted  because 
>>> at  my age I have trouble remembering if there are any  Stands on the   
 
>>> list. 
>>> 
>>> I do  note that  you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my    
  
>>> time) and 
>>> I do know that when I get an  e-mail from  someone indicating wanting   
>>> to put a  
>>> lot  of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built  (and not built   
  
>>> by us) I 
>>> try  very had to discourage them from  pouring money into it with the   
 
>>> advice 
>>> to  just sail it as is and when  ready, get a more recent model since   
  
>>> the  
>>> differences are so drastic. 
>>>    
>>> I also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what  you   
>>> got was not 
>>> satisfactory  but note  that you did not say that we always tell    
>>> whole boat   
>>> and parts buyers that  everything from us is  returnable.   Did you   
>>>  send back   
>>> any faulty parts - if not, please do.  
>>> 
>>>  ss 
>>> 
>>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From:  "John Shulick"  <jsbudda at verizon.net> 
>>> To:  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July  28, 2009  1:39 PM 
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general  boat's complaint  (continued) 
>>> 
>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Ben,   
>>>>  
>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US  auto  industry has many   
>>>> complex 
>>>>  factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not shure  
>>>> whether 
>>>> it was the decisive  factor in their  fall. As for the cost and what   
 
>>>> the   
>>>> price  
>>>> point would be for a "sport  model".  GB would  have to make that 
>>>> determination. Stan  does not seem  to notice or respond to any posts 
I 
>>>> place    
>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay  and  not   
>>>> through 
>>>> him.  
>>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder  and  inquired   
>>>> about some 
>>>>  various  small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a    
>>>> tiller for 
>>>> $750.00 The tiller  had a crack at  the end bolted to the rudder (but 
>>>>  usable) 
>>>>  and I had to seal and paint the blade  myself. The request for     
>>>> small parts  
>>>> was ignored. Since I can take a  hint I now go to  other sources for   
>>>> my mast    
>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle  this  week   
>>>> as part 
>>>> of  
>>>>  my trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement  part not an     
>>>> equivilent) ,  
>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over  $2,000 in potential  sales to me and   
>>>> by the   
>>>>  time my 71 restoration is finished he will probably loose  $2,000    
>>>> more. I 
>>>> still am in the  market  for a 150 Genoa and a furler plus a   
>>>>  complete  set of 
>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself  I'm looking for parts   
>>>> and  
>>>>  accessories at a fair and resonable price and will  find or make     
>>>> them as 
>>>>  needed. 
>>>>   
>>>> John S  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>    
>>>> John; 
>>>> You're referring to the old US  car  manufacturers technique known   
>>>> as "the  
>>>> pizza principle". Sell the basic model for a  decent price but  add   
>>>> on an  
>>>> outrageous markup for  each option. The Japanese  kicked our butts   
>>>> when  they  
>>>> put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice  was color. 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think the  stripped down  racing Rhodes would be that much 
less 
>>>>  expensive to build, or  that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not  
>>>> building   
>>>> or selling boats, or  cars. 
>>>> 
>>>>  I just want to know  where I can get parts and/or accessories without 
  
>>>>  losing 
>>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if  it's fair  and reasonable. 
>>>> 
>>>> BenCittadino    
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> --   
>>>> View this message in  context: 
>>>>  http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-    
>>>> tp24660048p24704459.html 
>>>> Sent from  the  Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
>>>>  
>>>> __________________________________________________  
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using  the mailing  list   
>>>> go to 
>>>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>  
>>>  __________________________________________________  
>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing list go   
  
>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list  
>>>  __________________________________________________  
>> 
>>Lou  Rosenberg 
>>Videographer  
>> 
>>Steinhardt School of Culture,  Education and  
>>Human Development at NYU 
>> 
>>239 Greene  Street, Room 315 
>>lsr3 at nyu.edu 
>> 
>>(212)  998-5122   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>__________________________________________________    
>>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list  go to   
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list    
>>__________________________________________________    
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>------------------------------   
>>  
>>Message: 8 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:30:55 -0400 (EDT)  
>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>  
>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yellowstone Lake, Jackson Lake  Sailing   
>>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org  
>>Message-ID: 
>>      
><10147864.1248881456189.JavaMail.root at elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> 
 
>>         
>>Content-Type:  text/plain;  charset=UTF-8 
>> 
>>Caesar, 
>>  
>>How goes the  sailing?  I have been told of the  excellent sailing in the 
>Wyoming area  by a member of the  Montgomery fleet, possibly not far from 
you 
>at all.   Apparently  Yellowstone Lake is excellent, with the only 
exception 
>being a  fixed bridge between the lake and marina.  The same skipper  
>reported that  Jackson Lake has no obstructions to contend with,  and is 
much more 
>favorable  anyway, apparently even warm enough  to swim in.  My Swedish 
>cousins laugh  at our caution about  cold water and insist they usually 
break the 
>Baltic ice  to take  a refreshing dip. 
>> 
>>I am told the marinas on the south  shore are impressive, and the only 
>irritant is mosquitos in the  shallow water  areas of the lake. 
>> 
>>Have you tried  sailing here?  I camped  there years ago, and it is 
awesome  
>scenery. 
>> 
>>Best to you,   
>>  
>>Art 
>> 
>>  
>>------------------------------   
>>  
>>_______________________________________________    
>>Rhodes22-list mailing list 
>>Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org  
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list  
>> 
>> 
>>End of Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol  1931, Issue 1    
>>**********************************************    
>>__________________________________________________ 
>>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to  
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list  
>>__________________________________________________  
>
>
>__________________________________________________  
>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list  go to   
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list  
>__________________________________________________  
>
>
>__________________________________________________  
>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list  go to   
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list  
>__________________________________________________  
>
>
>**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See  yours in just 2 
easy 
>steps!  
>(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=ht
tp://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd  
>=JulystepsfooterNO115)  
>
>
>------------------------------  
>
>Message: 3 
>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:38:57 -0400  
>From: Hank <hnw555 at gmail.com> 
>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway 
>To: The Rhodes 22  Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>Message-ID:  
>        <c319c8b50907311738p1b340255g8a37568337f9e0 at mail.gmail.com>  
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 
>
>Leland,  
>
>In your scenario it is not critical because you are trying to  go to a 
point 
>the is more on a broad reach.  However, if you look  at my version and 
>consider this scenario. 
>
>Here, we  want to sail from A to C.  With the board down we can sail 
directly  
>there.  However, with the board up, we end up at B instead of C.  We then 
>need to tack and sail the extra distance.  The  speed gained with the 
board 
>up does not make up for the extra distance  we had to sail. 
>
>Hank 
>
>On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at  6:51 PM, Leland <LKUHN at cnmc.org> wrote: 
>
>>  
>> 
>> David, 
>> 
>> Everything I've  read indicates that you are right.  Many of the times 
that 
>>  I've measured the effects of the centerboard I've noticed more than a 
ten  
>> degree improvement into the wind.  However, every time I put  the board 
down 
>> I slow down.  Every time I raise the board I  speed up. 
>> 
>> Hopefully this picture will come through:  
>> 
>> 
>>  http://www.nabble.com/file/p24764138/Sail%2BSpeed.ppt Sail+Speed.ppt  
>> 
>> Let's assume you're sailing from point A to B with  the board up.  
Doesn't 
>> matter how much you drift because  you're still going from point A to B. 
 If 
>> you put the board  down you can sail more into the wind and you are able 
to 
>> sail  from point A to C.  To get to point B you would then need to sail 
from  
>> point C to A.  Even if you weren't sailing slower with the  board down, 
>> wouldn't it take you longer to go from point A to C  to B than sailing 
>> directly from point A to B? 
>>  
>> Am I missing something? 
>> 
>> Unless I want  to go more into the wind, it still seems like the best 
reason 
>> to  put the board down is to knock the barnacles off. 
>> 
>>  Lee 
>> 
>> 
>> Yesterday I got the chance to sail  in 5-10 kt wind and relatively flat 
>> water.  I set the boat  up on a beam reach (apparent wind 90 degreees).  
The 
>> course  was was 060 M by my steering compass.  We were able to do about  
>> .5  - 4 kts SOG by the GPS. 
>> 
>> With  the board down our  COG (Course over ground) was 055-057 M 
>>  With the board up out COG  was 045-048 M 
>> 
>>  Although my steering compass is not compensated and thus has unknown  
>> deviation, since it was held steady at 060 the deviation has no  
importance 
>> here.  Lowering the board reduced leeway by about  10 degrees.  Lowering 
the 
>> board had no observed effect on  SOG although wind variation could have 
>> hidden a small effect.  Based on these results I see no reason to sail 
with 
>> the  board up unless in very thin water and one very good reason to sail 
 
>> with 
>> it down. 
>> 
>> David Walker  
>> -- 
>> View this message in context: 
>>  http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24764138.html 
>>  Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
>>  
>> __________________________________________________ 
>>  To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to  
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>  
>
>
>------------------------------  
>
>Message: 4 
>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:41:42 -0700 (PDT)  
>From: BenCittadino <bencittadino at gmail.com> 
>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes Crew Gear 
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org  
>Message-ID: <24765265.post at talk.nabble.com>  
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii  
>
>
>Michael M and/or Rummy and/or Whomever  (Whoever?...whatever): 
>
>Your reference to a Rhodes logo comes  at an interesting time for me. I 
was 
>thinking about ordering up some  gift "crew member" polo shirts for my 
kids 
>and grandkids using a  generic sailboat logo of some kind embroidered on 
them 
>along with the  name of my boat.  I have now noticed the "snazzy" Rhodes 
Logo 
>on  the Rhodes' Owners web page. Is that the logo you are talking about? 
Who  
>does that logo belong to? Whose permission do I need to use it on my  
shirts? 
>If it is already on shirts sold by Lands End can they produce  custom 
shirts 
>with my boat name? Your feedback would be appreciated.  
>
>BenCittadino 
>SV Susan Kay ('93 recycled '08)  
>Highlands, NJ 
>
>
>
>   
>
>R22RumRunner wrote: 
>> 
>> Michael,  
>>   
>>   
>> Yes, they still have the  logo. I have the information on a different   
>> computer. I  will send it to you later. 
>>   
>> Rummy 
>>  
>>   
>> In a message dated 7/30/2009 9:22:32  P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,   
>> mjm at michaelmeltzer.com writes:  
>> 
>> Is the  rhodes22 logo still on file with lands  end? Rummy you remember 
or 
>> one  else? 
>>  
>> -mjm 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----  
>> From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org 
>>  [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]  On Behalf Of Arthur H.  
>> Czerwonky 
>> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:23  PM 
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List 
>> Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes  Promotions 
>> 
>> Deena,  
>> 
>> Do you think an inscribed ball point, one  worth keeping and using, 
would 
>> make sense?  We just  need to 'blue sky'  this show... 
>> 
>> I stitched a  miniature sail bag once, it was made of  actual sailcloth 
and  
>> was embroidered.  Really quality you wouldn't pitch  in  file 13.  Maybe 
an 
>> embossed key chain with a small  fiberglass piece  (of hull) as a 
hanger.   
>> There must  be soms scrap around the GB  facility.  " You have a small 
part  
>> of 
>> the boat, we can deliver the rest  in a few  months."  Let's stretch our 
>> imagination over Stan  (SOS)! 
>> 
>> Art 
>> 
>>  -----Original Message----- 
>>>From:  captainpy at comcast.net  
>>>Sent: Jul 29, 2009 4:56 PM 
>>>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list]  Rhodes  Promotions 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>>Stan!!!!!!!!     
>>>  
>>>How about a Rhodes 22 T-shirt That says "Ask me about my  Rhodes"  )On 
one 
>> side a picture and on the other GB's  web address?   
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>>Deena AKA Captain Py   
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>   
>>>----- Original  Message -----   
>>>From: rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org  
>>>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>>Sent:  Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:00:39 PM  GMT -05:00 US/Canada 
Eastern  
>>>Subject: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1931,  Issue 1  
>>> 
>>>Send Rhodes22-list mailing list submissions  to   
>>>        rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org   
>>> 
>>>To  subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit   
>>>   http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list 
>>>or, via  email,  send a message with subject or body 'help' to 
>>>  rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org 
>>>  
>>>You can reach the  person managing the list at  
>>>         rhodes22-list-owner at rhodes22.org  
>>> 
>>>When replying, please edit  your Subject  line so it is more specific 
>>>than "Re: Contents of  Rhodes22-list digest..." 
>>> 
>>>  
>>>Today's Topics:   
>>> 
>>>  1. Re: Stuff that works - pest control solutions  (Jim Connolly)  
>>>   2. Re: Fw:  general boat's dilema  (Arthur  H. Czerwonky) 
>>>   3. Re: general boat's complaint  (continued) (stan) 
>>>   4. Re: general boat's  complaint  (continued) (stan) 
>>>   5. Re: general  boat's complaint /in  all fairness (Lou Rosenberg) 
>>>  6. Re: general boat's  complaint /in all fairness 
>>>  (Arthur H. Czerwonky)   
>>>   7.  Re: general boat's complaint /in all fairness (Lowe,  Rob)  
>>>   8. Yellowstone Lake, Jackson Lake Sailing (Arthur H.  Czerwonky)   
>>> 
>>>  
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------  
>>> 
>>>Message: 1 
>>>Date: Tue,  28 Jul 2009 22:01:17 -0400   
>>>From: "Jim Connolly"  <jbconnolly at comcast.net> 
>>>Subject:  Re:  [Rhodes22-list] Stuff that works - pest control solutions 
>>>To:  "'The Rhodes 22 Email List'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>    
>>>Message-ID:  <200907290201.n6T21ZTY022293 at raeid23.raenet.com>    
>>>Content-Type: text/plain;          charset="us-ascii" 
>>> 
>>>I had hornets and wasps in  the coaming  right before launch, so I 
needed a 
>>>fast  solution.     
>>> 
>>>I found a non-toxic  wasp killer spray that is based on mint  oil 
("poison  
>>>free" from Victor Pest Control).  It took a whole  can, but seemed to 
>> work. 
>>>The smell repelled  or confused returning  wasps, and those that were 
home  
>>>when I sprayed (at least some of them)  died.  
>>> 
>>>Jim Connolly 
>>>s/v Inisheer  
>>>   
>>> 
>>>-----Original  Message----- 
>>>From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org  
>>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf  Of John Lock   
>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:29 PM  
>>>To: Rhodes 22   
>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list]  Stuff that works - pest control solutions   
>>>  
>>>Last year I had a couple of pest problems that many people  responded 
too 
>>>with helpful suggestions.  Here's  what my results  were - 
>>> 
>>>1) Problem -  spider webs in the rigging (especially  masthead fly) 
>>  Solution - 
>>>WD40.  I had the mast down early this  spring to fix several things.   
>> Before  
>>>raising again, I sprayed  WD40 liberally on the masthead,  Windex, VHF 
>>>antenna, and diamond  stays.  So far (5  months 
>>>later) not a single web!  Still get  them  down lower where I didn't 
spray, 
>> so 
>>>we know the  spiders are still  there.  But they don't want to (or 
can't)  
>>>start webs on the WD40  treated portion. 
>>>  
>>>2) Problem - paper wasps building nests under  the  cockpit coaming 
>> Solution - 
>>>clothes drier sheets.  Middle of  last summer I stapled a bunch of drier 
 
>>>sheets into the wood backing up  under the coaming on  both sides.  No 
wasp 
>>>nests have appeared in  almost  a year now.  I see some more wasp 
activity 
>>>now, so I  suspect it's time to renew the sheets.  But that's a cheap 
and  
>>>effective control. 
>>> 
>>>Now  if only I could figure out what  to do about the ants coming aboard 
 
>> from 
>>>shore....   
>>>  
>>>Cheers! 
>>>John Lock  
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   
>>>s/v Pandion - '79  Rhodes 22 
>>>Lake Sinclair, GA    
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   
>>>  
>>>__________________________________________________  
>>>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing list go to 
  
>>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list    
>>>__________________________________________________    
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>>------------------------------   
>>>  
>>>Message: 2 
>>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:31:43  -0400 (EDT)   
>>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky"  <czerwonky at earthlink.net>   
>>>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] F 
>
>[Message truncated]  
>
>__________________________________________________
>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to  
http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________


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