[Rhodes22-list] General Boats (Rose & Stan's) position paper
Todd Tavares
sprocket80 at mail.com
Tue Dec 29 00:36:32 EST 2009
Stan,
I am glad I could help by opening the door.
Since a few of your points were overtly directed at me, I will clarify and or defend my thoughts and opinions.
As to item #1:
We both agree this is the owners list. We differ on "The relationship between GB and the List." I certainly hope for the
economic health of GB, but while this is a meeting place for Rhodes 22 owners, and there is a direct benefit to many of the owners
that you are a member, but the "vitality" of the list is not tied to the health of GB at all. If you decided this very minute to retire and close the factory or even cease to participate, we would still be here posting and interacting...so don't get a swell-ed head.
You being the owner and CEO of GB does not mean you have any special privileges above anyone else. Some here tried to limit other members from making certain types posts which were thought to be out of line because they were commercial in nature.
I really care little who posts what. I was not defending Art in his promotion of his canvas business or against you in your dispute with him, only his
prerogative to post what ever he wants and that you no rights or special privileges above him or anybody else. He should not have been berated and harassed.
item #2:
Again, I care little who posts and what they post, only that they not be harassed, berated, or threatened for posting. If the list members are OK with you posting commercial ads or posts,then it should be OK for all.
item #3:
Your previous post that membership to this list be conditional upon agreement to give GB a 5% commission was insane, as is your continued assertion that GB deserves any "residuals" from the private sales of their boats on the list or anywhere else. The list never completely
endorsed this your ideas ether. A post as late as just two days ago bears this out. The numbered certificate program may make more sense to some,
but not to all.
Todd T.
-----Original Message-----
From: stan <stan at rhodes22.com>
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:54 am
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] General Boats (Rose & Stan's) position paper
Rhodies All:
Thanks for re-visiting this topic - and opening the door for GB to re-visit
it:
1. As to the question of who owns the List, there is no question: It
belongs to all Rhodes owners, not to General Boats. The real question is
"The relationship between GB and the List".
Analogous to the "Right to Choose/Pro Life" issue, the history of the
Shakers' religion parallels the facts-of-life reality that the List's
continuity vitality is tied to the health of GB. (I think Allen Greenspan
said that.) Yearly exposure at Annapolis and shows all over the country,
magazine and book articles, an internet number one rating, a living entity
to go to for a mast, cb or pop top replacement; 99% of the unusually
brilliant characters collection of Rhodies get the value of the GB/List
connection. For the 1% who can not get it, the argument is that, as owner
of more Rhodes 22s (at least in this economic climate) than anyone else on
the List, as GB CEO, I claim a right to add my two, no make that four, cents
when the topic and spirits move me.
2. As to what subjects can be brought up on the List, my 4 votes, OK make
that one vote if we are playing by my party's democratic
enlightened-capitalism ideals, have been and continue to be, there should be
no limits The List's history shows that most losers self-remove, given
enough rope.
3 As to the issue of General Boat's claim to residuals that, in spite of
the List's past posted logic, still strikes some of you on the List as
"insane", there now is in place a working solution (based on List input) in
the Numbered Support Certificate program: A win, win, win for "Used" Rhodes
buyers, sellers and your builder. All come away from private re-sales with
a pay-off that those who do not take advantage of this voluntary public
option fail to have broadened their focus to understand.
4. As to entrepreneurial Rhodes owners, we support their efforts and have
directed endless new owners to the services they can get from "in-business"
Rhodies and other parts manufacturers. We do have one issue in this
theatre and it makes our blood boil because we did not see it coming and do
not deserve it and that is our last numbered 5 "As to". It starts off
being destructive but ends up with a productive resolution, so bear with
your company if you value its state of mind.
5. As to General Boats being pissed off with Art: In keeping with our
encouraging young entrepreneurs, when Art expressed an interest in making
boom rooms, since the ones we were having made were so costly, we encouraged
him by letting him use the plant's facilities and overhead, stay at the
plant's guest room and criticizing the design's evolution - it was to be a
joint venture. When the boom room was ready to show we went to the
difficulty and expense of getting a second in-water spot at Annapolis. That
bill came in for even more since it turned out that Art had unilaterally
decided to use the slip space for an additional day more then we had
contracted for. It should have been our first omen but we glossed over
it - it would be a business expense that the new boom room business would be
paying for. A few orders came in and Art dutifully sent GB a commission.
A commission? We though this a business venture. This should have been
our second notice that this was not going the way we envisioned it but in
the scheme of GB's business it was a small item and we had more pressing
matters. OK, we will settle for his royalty idea. But, if we were not to
share in the profits, then it is Art's business and he should be paying for
his business costs, like show space. Those who know Art better may not have
been surprised by his response that our investments were gifts. (This was
beginning to sound like a Judge Judy case.) Noticing a lot of boom room
activity on the List, we asked Art if our payments were up to date. He
informed us that we were out and that we had agreed to be out. Shocking
news that started a slow burn. Pouring more fuel on our growing flame, he
announced to the List that he would also be supplying Pop Top Enclosures, an
item that was not in the Art/GB business plan and an item we have a large
inventory of sitting at the plant.
I like to like all Rhodes owners, even Rummy, and I did like Art before
contacting his disingenuous side, so I have a suggested solution that can
get us back to square one and in line with the argument in "As to" number
one:
a) Art continues his Boom Room business and reimburses General Boats for
its monies laid out for his business and has commissions brought up to date
and forthcoming on future sales.
b) Art agrees that, supporting his claims of supporting the welfare of
General Boats, he will not build or sell Rhodes pop top enclosures or,
alternatively, will contract with GB to make pop top enclosures exclusively
for General Boats.
c) Art, whose claim for sympathy is that he has made an investment in
equipment for his sewing business, contracts to sew interior and exterior
cushion covers sets for GB where General Boats will supply the fabric and
General Boats will use its own in-plant cut to shape foam to install in said
contracted covers.
d) With a working agreement that Art will stay with, and the supply to GB
of products that meet GB's high standards, General Boats will have no
objection to Art manufacturing and selling-direct, other boat items from
boat and tiller weather protective covers to interior window curtains.
We appreciate some out there feel business is business, it's a free country
and beside we should not be bothering them with issues concerning the well
being of GB. Of course you who feel this way have the right to feel this
way. As we have the right to react in kind with those electing to live
with this kind of disconnect.
And while the List majority seems to have approved List advertising, I have
to add that Cindy's book "America's Bubble Economy", that came out late 06
and turned out to be right on, prompted Wiley and Sons to ask for another
one. "After Shock", at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc. has gone from
obscurity to the top of the financial books seller's list in just a few days
before running out and waiting for the second printing. I read the galleys
and I hope this one is dead wrong.
And that is all I have to say. (For now.) If anyone does not like it, six
of you, better make that three, can meet me 3/11 at the OK Coral at High
Noon. Since I will probably be 85, it will make a fair fight.
stan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Communication on da Rhodes list
> Todd,
>
> "... if you want to ban commercial advertisement, it will have to apply to
> everyone."
> Why? Why is this statement assumed to be true? You are quite correct in
> stating that this is a Rhodes 22 "Owners" list but one cannot equate
> participation by the Rhodes 22 manufacturer with that of aftermarket
> manufacturers.
>
> That said, I am NOT in favor of a ban on commercial posts at all. Please
> keep them simple, occassional and not directed towards a particular
> individual (do not chases leads on da list) and we will be fine. If Stan
> announces that he is building a Catalina Conversion available at a
> particular price to those who might be interested, or Art has a boom room
> for sale, that's fine by me. I think that the problem was that Stan and
> Art
> were using da list to fuel their feud.
>
> I would still appreciate a simple website for reference, pictures and
> pricing. Art, if you need help setting it up, just ask. They're not
> difficult or expensive ($5/month or so at
> http://www.netfirms.com/web-hosting/index.php including Sitebuilder.)
> See,
> commercial posting, no problem (NB: I am not affiliated with netfirms.)
>
> Mike
> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> Nissequogue River, NY
>
> From: "Todd Tavares": Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:22 AM
>>
>> Rik, and Michael,
>>
>> No disrespect meant to anyone here, but this is the Rhodes 22 "OWNERS"
>> list. Not the General
>> Boats list, Art's canvas list, etc. No one had a problem with Stan
>> participating, posting ads, and
>> even most agreed with his insane 5% commission for listed here for sale
>> until a bunch of guys jumped on Art.
>> But Stan has a website too.
>> Maybe some of the more computer savvy guys here should help MJM re-do the
>> GB website and literature
>> so it is up to date and flashy.
>>
>> We are 99.9% loyal to Stan and the future of GB, but the bottom line is
>> that this is the owners
>> group list and if you want to ban commercial advertisement, it will have
>> to apply to everyone.
>> Let us not confuse the issues.
>>
>> Todd T
>>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rik Sandberg <sanderico1 at gmail.com>
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:20 am
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Communication on da Rhodes list
>>>
>> Art,
>>
>> "Know that I am the manufacturer, also the designer, and also the worker
>> bee. I am also the risk taker - in a game with loaded dice"
>>
>> Yeah, so??? Is this the Art's boom room and pop-top enclosure list??
>>
>> In the almost 11 years I have been on this list, nobody has ever had a
>> problem doing their business business back channel until you came along.
>>
>> Websites are cheap. Make one up, put a link in your sig.
>>
>> But please, stop whining about it.
>>
>> Rik
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Art Czerwonky
>> <a_czerwonky at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> I defer to Stan and GBI on the credibility and quality of this boat we
>>> all
>>> own. Unknown to him I referred two credible prospects directly to him
>>> at
>>> the St Pete show earlier this month. I don't expect letters, candy, or
>>> flowers for my honest attempt to help prosper his boat efforts. I will
>>> not,
>>> however, defer to him on the credibility and quality of the cockpit
>>> enclosure or the boat cover or even the PTE.
>>>
>>> Michael, with all due respect, you accord special status to the
>>> manufacturer of a product. Know that I am the manufacturer, also the
>>> designer, and also the worker bee. I am also the risk taker - in a game
>>> with loaded dice. Stan does not manufacture canvas, and he is, no doubt
>>> very thankful for that. Sometimes it helps to put yourself in someone
>>> else's shoes. I need the opportunity to survive this business just like
>>> he
>>> does, for the good of a fleet that wants choices and viable options.
>>>
>>> Art
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 12/22/09, Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > From: Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
>>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Commercial Ads on da Rhodes list
>>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> > Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 6:12 PM
>>> > Todd,
>>> >
>>> > You have a good point and I don't disagree except (here it
>>> > comes) in the
>>> > case of GBI. After all, this is called the Rhodes 22
>>> > list because it is
>>> > about the Rhodes 22 sailboat. I believe that Stan
>>> > (GBI) has a slightly
>>> > different place on the list than Art or anyone else for
>>> > that matter.
>>> >
>>> > This list embodies a group of diverse individuals brought
>>> > together mostly
>>> > through the efforts of Stan, directly or indirectly.
>>> > It has been my
>>> > pleasure to provide information and assistance to other
>>> > Rhodies, in an
>>> > effort to help GBI. This is not to say that I
>>> > wouldn't help Art succeed,
>>> > quite the contrary, but I do not treat the boat
>>> > manufacturer and an
>>> > aftermarket accessory maker in the same way. I
>>> > believe that this is the
>>> > point of distinction.
>>> >
>>> > Mike
>>> > s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>> > Nissequogue River, NY
>>>>
>>> >
>>> > From: "Todd Tavares" Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:33 PM
>>> > >
>>> > > Michael,
>>> > >
>>> > > I think you are looking at
>>> > that old discussion through Rose (and Stan)
>>> > > colored glasses. Art has a valid point, regardless of
>>> > the sour grapes
>>> > > which went on between him and Stan. Commercial
>>> > advertisement is
>>> > > commercial advertisement. If you think Art
>>> > should only be allowed to
>>> > > direct Rhodes listers to a website, then the rules
>>> > should apply across the
>>> > > board---Art,Stan, myself, or anyone else.
>>> > > IMHO
>>> > >
>>> > > Todd T
>>>
>>> > > -----Original Message-----
>>> > > From: Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
>>> > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> > > Sent: Tue, Dec 22, 2009 3:00 pm
>>> > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Commercial Ads on da Rhodes
>>> > list
>>>
>>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > > From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>
>>> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:02 AM
>>> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Babes on Boats
>>>>>> > >
>>> > >> All,
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I think this is an excellent suggestion. As
>>> > I produce BR, PT, and cover
>>> > >> options as a service to the fleet, MJM has
>>> > suggested that it is somehow
>>> > >> slacking ethic to make this knowledge available to
>>> > the skippers who want
>>> > >> and need it. An interesting and apparently
>>> > biased slant considering that
>>> > >> Stan has freely taken the perogative with the
>>> > Catalina 25 conversion,
>>> > >> which he has openly announced and advertised on
>>> > our list, with price and
>>> > >> all.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Understand that I have no objection at all to
>>> > Stan's placement of his
>>> > >> notice/ad. The playing field should be
>>> > level, however. Any double
>>> > >> standard is a disservice to our fleet skippers and
>>> > owners. Our objective
>>> > >> should be to provide the very best information and
>>> > service to a very
>>> > >> deserving and intelligent fleet market.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Art
>>> > >> s/v Mary Jane
>>> > >> Lake Hartwell/St Pete
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