[Rhodes22-list] History
Thena Carville
thenacarville at bellsouth.net
Thu Jan 1 10:14:38 EST 2009
This is the history as I remember it as well...I joined several of the lists
on Sailnet and the rhodes group was the friendliest...several of the members
felt like good friends after a while...Rummy, Sail Pappy, Steve, Alex and
his lovely Pamela and of course Michael...we were having difficulty with
Sailnet and Michael said he could set up the list for us...we ASKED him to
do it...we WANTED him to set it up and he was definitely in charge (also his
nickel)...we were friends and we treated each other like friends...we
behaved more like we were in the home of a friend, not a bar...perhaps that
is where we made our mistake...I much prefer the idea of keeping in mind we
are in the HOME of someone we know and like...rude is rude and it simply
doesn't need to be like that...once someone behaves badly, you wonder about
having him back in your home...and no one asked you to join the list or even
post to the list...it is all voluntary contributions...the idea was to
"share" knowledge and enjoy the company of people who share a common
interest...well, several common interests, actually...if you want to
communicate with some one person in particular, we ALWAYS went off list...if
we didn't think everyone would be interested, we communicated directly with
the person we wanted to communicate with...sometimes people would get out of
hand, but when called on it, they would either calm it down or remove
themselves, Michael did not have to do it...or then perhaps he did, I was
just always of the opinion he just asked them nicely and they did the right
thing...I like to think the best of people...we did not always stay on topic
and were quick to share something funny or amusing or thoughtful with the
group...the spirit of the exchanges have changed and not for the
better...several times lately I have gotten so disgusted I was ready to
leave, but did not, hoping it would get better...I do not see the changes
Michael and John have suggested as being harmful or detrimental but as a
welcome "change of tone" for the people who wish to belong to a group of
friends...if you no longer wish to participate, so be it...but frankly, this
is OUR list and we want it back...
Thena
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of Mary Lou Troy
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:27 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] History
Here's the history as I remember it dating at least to early 1998.
Similar to Bill's but differing in a few key factors. (If people are
going to be using the archives for list history I figured I ought to
post the history as I remember it.)
I believe the early list was a Sail-net email list. Sailnet was
founded in 1994. I don't know when they started their email lists. I
think I found the Rhodes list about the same time we purchased
Fretless in the Spring of 1998 maybe a bit before. It was not a
Rhodes 22 list but a list for admirers and owners of any Rhodes
designed boat. The R22 owners quickly overwhelmed the list and it
became a de facto R22 list. We were delighted to find each other. If
there was another email list before that, it was not a link on the
GB website in early 1996 when we started looking at the R22. There
was evidently a print R22 Owners Association newsletter that ceased
publication in 1991. Sailnet changed owners several times with
impacts on email list reliability and the rules for the list. At some
point (2002) our esteemed Michael Meltzer (who did indeed help GB get
into the web business in the 90s and was a long-time R22 owner)
offered to host the list on his server. He put it together in one
night using the rhodes22.org domain which he had already used in
setting up the Rhodes owners site on his server. That was the genesis
of the current list. For a while people were on both lists but
eventually the Sailnet traffic withered away and Sailnet got rid of
their email lists completely earlier this year. They still have
forums (bulletin boards) and there is still a Rhodes forum there.
In the early days of the list there were several gatherings of Rhodes
owners (and wannabees). There was a memorable dinner at Carroll's
Creek Restaurant and another at Buddy's in Annapolis after the Boat
Show. I remember Cam Whetstone carrying his new centerboard cap
around as we waited to get in and Michael Meltzer checking email on
his laptop long before any of the rest of us had heard of aircards.
This was followed by a couple years when Jan Eyres (event planner
extraordinaire) and I (but mostly Jan) planned an after hours catered
dinner at the Annapolis Boat Show. Michael arranged the passes to get
us in after-hours. Somewhere I still have the pics from that. There
was a memorable gathering at Kentucky Lake. We didn't go but it is
memorialized with pics on the Rhodes owners website. There was a
marriage. There were a couple of gatherings on the Chesapeake as well
as well as several mid-winter Chesapeake PlanJams - the last at my
house last January with 30 some people. At this year's Boat
Show (and last year's) we had lunch with Rhodes owners from the list
in a mini-gathering organized on the list. These things won't happen
if people sign off the list because of the content or the tone of the
conversations.
In the early days, if there were angry outbursts and hard feelings
they mostly went off list. One person (maybe two) did get banned when
they couldn't abide by the charter. It was Michael's call. It was his
list. Bill is right that Stan used to send people to the list but I
don't think Stan ever claimed ownership. I know that we all have felt
a great deal of gratitude to Stan for continuing to build and recycle
the boats that we sail with such pleasure. For the most part we have
tried to be helpful to General Boats. My guess is that the link to
the list came off the GB website when politics started getting ugly.
I'm pretty sure Stan still sends people to the list but probably only
after they have bought the boat or at least have made the decision to
buy the boat.
The list charter was a group effort by members of the list to make
rules that we could live with and still get along with each other to
everyone's benefit.
Rummy, who just left the list, through his own good efforts compiled
an owners list that was available to any member in good standing of
that list. It was invaluable as we got to know each other. When Rummy
decided to pack it in, I volunteered to take on the owners list but
life intervened and I didn't get to it. By the time I was ready to
take up the effort the political problems were in full swing and I
wasn't feeling all that eager (not a good excuse just the truth about
how I felt at the time). If the list becomes tolerable again, maybe
I'll make another attempt.
Mary Lou
1991 R22 Fretless
Rock Hall, MD
At 12:06 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
>That's good history to know.
>When I signed up about 2 years ago, (that seams to be when it started
>downhill) I was refered to by Stan also. I saw all the political crap & was
>dissappointed....and said so. I got a shorter version of the same
>explanation & then understood. I was told this was not Stans list....by
>Stan.
>I agree with you nothing should be done different, the charter covers it.
My
>problem is that some people insult you in such a nice way, it's allowed
...&
>when someone comes right out & says it, it's a bad thing. I was disgusted
by
>some of the things said about our last President, I just as disgusted that
>some people won't even give the new one a chance.
>Jb
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:32 AM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
>
>
> > Jb,
> >
> > Michael built and maintained Stan's website. In return, Stan would tow
> > Michael's boat to Edenton every winter, upgrade it, install "test"
> > equipment, bottom paint it, and get it back to Michael in time for an
> > early launch.
> >
> > At some point, Michael suggested the formation of an email group so that
> > people could ask each other all the questions that Stan couldn't
> > possibly respond to...even if he owned a computer, and knew how to use
it.
> >
> > Michael put links on Stan's website so both existing owners and newbies
> > could find "da list". (Remember, Google is only 10 years old -- it was
> > difficult for anyone other than a computer geek to find anything on the
> > Internet, and email lists were not indexed.) Almost everyone who got on
> > "da list" at that time was sent here by Stan, both from his website and
> > from in-person recommendations both before and after boat purchases.
> >
> > I know I got here because Stan suggested I could learn a lot from people
> > on the list. I know many others who got here the same way.
> >
> > Michael is one of the smartest people on the planet. In the early days,
> > he would answer 9 out of 10 questions asked. He talked to Stan
> > regularly, and when he didn't know the answer, and felt it was a good
> > question, he would call Stan after hours and come up with the technical
> > information the rest of us sought.
> >
> > We hopped onto the Sailnet list server at some point. They wanted to be
> > a web portal for sailers. They offered free list-hosting. As they grew
> > they encountered growing pains. They switched software, and lost
> > everyone on the list in the process. Those of us who cared, contacted
> > everyone else back-channel and told them what had happened and what they
> > had to do to get back on the list. I believe we had 34 members at that
> > point.
> >
> > Then Sailnet started selling things, and made a rule that no one else
> > could sell anything on any list they hosted. Then they started
> > monitoring lists to enforce the rule, and bouncing out people who
> > violated their rule.
> >
> > We started looking for another way to run our list, and Michael came up
> > with the Mailman Program which he hosted and maintained as
administrator.
> >
> > At some point Stan learned to use a computer, and started providing
> > information directly to the list. What a treat! When somebody got
> > something wrong, or had a better way to solve a problem, the guy who
> > built the boat would actually discuss the issue on an open forum!
> >
> > Michael was plugged into the blogging community before anyone used the
> > word "blog". He would get jokes, and "insider info" and post it to the
> > list long before any other sailor had access to what he posted. Some
> > complained that it was "off-topic" but Stan always said he loved it, and
> > didn't give a damn if anyone didn't think it was funny, or disagreed
> > with anyone else's political views. And, he said, living in Edenton, he
> > wasn't locally exposed to a lot of cultural stuff he took for granted
> > living near NYC.
> >
> > "Bring it on" said Stan, "and don't worry about killing a boat
> > sale--this is much more fun--be yourself--respect each other--Michael
> > taught me how to use the delete key."
> >
> > Food fights would erupt from time to time over the exact same issues.
> > Politics and Religion were both banned at some point, so people started
> > inserting their political views in the form of often vicious jokes. The
> > only way anyone could object to the joke was to explain it in political
> > terms. The prohibition against Politics was dropped with the mandate
> > that all political discussion had to be preceded on the subject line by
> > the word Politics:
> >
> > How to use filters to toss all email labeled "Politics:" into anyone's
> > junk folder was repeatedly explained so that anyone not wishing to see
> > this stuff would never even know others on the list were actively
> > discussing these topics.
> >
> > Later, a rule was instituted mandating that Jokes: also appears on the
> > subject line when the content is jokes.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > At some point the list turned on Stan. It wasn't anyone's fault, it was
> > just the normal evolution of the Internet.
> >
> > Some of the people who had been with the list for a long time opted to
> > purchase other boats. They started singing the praises of their boats,
> > on Stan's list, and urging others to trade in Stan's boat for one
> > bigger, or better, or more ostentatious.
> >
> > Then people who would never have been able to find each other started
> > selling boats directly to each other, and cutting Stan out of the middle
> > -- "Stan offered me $10,000 for this boat, so you know he's going to
> > sell it for $20,000 -- I'll sell it to anyone on the list for $15,000."
> >
> > Then people started offering to fabricate parts for Stan's boat--"Send
> > me the specifications on that trailer, and I'll make one for you for 1/2
> > what Stan would charge."
> >
> > Over time they hijacked Stan's list. Stan objected several times, and
> > many people on the list went out of their way to only buy through Stan.
> > But, in the end, Stan stopped participating on a regular basis, and took
> > the list off his web site.
> >
> > But, it's still Stan's list, and Stan is still the common link for most
> > of us. He can't use it as a sales tool anymore, but he still can have
> > fun with old friends...just as it says in the charter.
> >
> > I have posted the charter below so all can see what they signed up for,
> > if they never took the time to read it previously.
> >
> > In prior years, Michael would post the Charter at this point--he wrote
> > it, but he seems disinclined to do so, so here it is:
> >
> > *CHARTER*: *rhodes22*-list at ...
> > <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=0>
> >
> > The *rhodes*-list at ...
> > <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=1>
> > group will be open to discussion of all
> > subjects specifically referring to *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes*
> > sailors. The focus of this group includes, but is not limited to:
> >
> > * Encouraging the understanding and discussion of *Rhodes* sailboats or
> > *Rhodes* sailors, in the many ways people wish to define it.
> >
> > * Acting as a source of information for *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes*
> > sailors worldwide and for people planning to buy/sell/repair/learn
> > about *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors.
> >
> > * Providing a forum for the development and promotion *Rhodes*
sailboats
> > or *Rhodes* sailors' culture, history, traditions and economy.
> >
> > * Any other subject that might be found at a sailor's bar or the
> > Clubhouse Bar, Including *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors'
travels,
> > events, family, jokes, quotations, pets, etc.
> >
> > * The level of discussion does not have to be fit for a child, but
> > some good taste is expected.
> >
> > Binaries and Formatting: The posting of encoded binaries (e.g.
> > pictures, compressed files, etc.) to *rhodes*-list at ...
> > <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=2>
> > is not
> > allowed, the list server will remove them. Please use mixed case when
> > posting (Upper and lower case letters), typing words in uppercase
> > means you are SHOUTING.
> >
> > Quoting: Place new material at the top of the post and quote what you
> > are replying to below. That makes it simple to find out what is being
> > said. You are encouraged to edit down the quoted material.
> >
> > HTML mail: Allot of the email programs (Netscape and outlook) that can
> > send their email with embedded HTML. Embedded HTML can cause some of
> > the list members to have trouble reading their mail due to "browser
> > wars", not reading their mail with a web browser and double messages
> > in digest mode. Member are encouraged to set their programs to send
> > "text" email.
> >
> > Subject Line: Please set or change the subject line to reflect the
> > true subject of the post. for example "Subject: anchors" might be
> > turned into "Subject: gastank was anchors". If a joke (or any
> > questionable material) is being posted please indicate it on the
> > subject line, for example "Subject: Monday's Humor (jokes)"
> >
> > Netiquette: Posts to the group are expected to be considerate of other
> > readers. Personal abuse, flames, and obscenities are *not*
> > appreciated; but we are sailors.......
> >
> > Anonymous email: It is expected that users will provide their name in
> > the email and will sign same. We like to know who we're talking to.
> >
> > Social Interaction/Manners: To a certain extent, the interaction is
> > about what you would expect in any informal social setting, for
> > example, a bar. It is recommended that you get to know people first
> > and introduce yourself (about the same social rules that you would use
> > to meet any new group of people). There is a high level of chitchat on
> > the list, and what you might think is insulting to a group or region
> > might only be people kidding each other after knowing them for years.
> > As in any bar, the subjects of politics and religion can lead to
> > heated augments and bar fights. These might be best avoided.
> >
> > The need to participate: It is recognized that a group is only whoever
> > post to it, no more and no less. We can only talk about what people
> > post about. You earn respect on the list by postings and trying to
> > help each other, you can not demand it. Most sailing topics we have
> > talked about already, We chit chat in the mean time waiting to answer
> > questions or a new subject/story. If you want to know something,
> > please post it, the more detail the better. If someone is trying to
> > help you please answer their reasonable questions. If you can help
> > someone, again post it, Try to repay the knowledge you gained.
> >
> > Bill Effros
> >
> > Jb wrote:
> > > why do keep saying this is Stans list?
> > > Jb
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:53 PM
> > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Michael,
> > >>
> > >> Who made you the Jello Sheriff?
> > >>
> > >> This is Stan's list, not yours, and he just told us he doesn't
believe
>a
> > >> Jello Sheriff is required.
> > >>
> > >> Shall I tell you who I think is being a PITA?
> > >>
> > >> Do you think it will improve the list if everyone conforms to your
>views
> > >> of who is using "mean sprite"? Only people who submit jokes you find
> > >> funny can remain on the list? If you don't laugh--they're out!
> > >>
> > >> Whatever happened to that rule about throwing people off the list if
> > >> they don't own a Rhodes-22?
> > >>
> > >> How about syntax rules, and spelling rules? That should be fun.
> > >>
> > >> Better drop the rule about people on ego trips.
> > >>
> > >> Of course, this charter change must be submitted to the entire list
as
> > >> per our charter. Does Rummy still get a vote? How about Ben? How
> > >> about people under your review?
> > >>
> > >> LOL,
> > >>
> > >> Your dear friend,
> > >>
> > >> Bill Effros
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> michael meltzer wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> He is the working idea.
> > >>>
> > >>> 1) Is the problem is not so much the off subject post, as long
as
> > >>> the
> > >>> are entertaining there is no real issue, funny, informative, nice..
> > >>>
> > >>> 2) The problem is the people using "mean sprite" , pounding on
> > >>> people,
> > >>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by changing the
>view
> > >>> of
> > >>> the members, being a PITA
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> To that end.
> > >>>
> > >>> 1) in the short: people using "mean sprite" , pounding on
people,
> > >>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by changing the
>view
> > >>> of
> > >>> the members. Can and will be suspended buy me and john at our whim,
>using
> > >>> current tools. Willing to listen to some group feedback but really
>the
> > >>> right to suspend and remove PITA's
> > >>>
> > >>> 2) in the long term both me and john no not have the time for
>this.
> > >>> Thinking along the lines of a "trusted" group of people can
numerated
>a
> > >>> poster for suspend/remove/band that a larger group of list members
can
> > >>> vote
> > >>> on(the jury, maybe post #/length of time on the list weighted). Web
>based
> > >>> system. Me and john then become the "apples board. The real question
>in
> > >>> most
> > >>> cases would be are you a PITA and worth it
> > >>>
> > >>> 3) there is a question about a wiki(ben), we tried it once but
>let's
> > >>> try again, it could have broad applies
> > >>>
> > >>> __________________________________________________
> > >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
to
> > >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> __________________________________________________
> > >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
to
> > >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >> __________________________________________________
> > >>
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
>
>__________________________________________________
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