[Rhodes22-list] John Shulick - I draw a distiction

[Herb Parsons]

John,

I think one major point that you're overlooking is that the capitalists 
are the ones that gave you (and those before you) those jobs to begin 
with. Had you (or any of your predecessors) chosen, you could have been 
farmers, and avoided the whole steel-worker experience.

Don't get me wrong, I know our system is not perfect. Far from it. 
However, the alternatives are far worse. Look at any fully socialist or 
communist country, and you'll find that your experience is the COMMON 
experience - standing in line for hours for food, looking for work that 
is appropriate to the worker, rather than being forced to take what is 
available, having to steal for food etc.

By the way, those profits were NOT made by "4 generations of labor", in 
spite of the union propaganda you may have heard. The labor alone 
wouldn't have made a dime, it required a BUSINESS. That BUSINESS made 
the profit, not the workers. The workers were indeed a large part of it 
all, probably the largest part, but that profit also included work by 
the 4 generations of management, and 4 generations of investors, and 4 
generations of owners. I was not done by labor alone.

That's capitalism.


John Shulick wrote:
>
> I don't understand the disdain for the capitalists. When the unions 
> demand benefits that allow a man to work for a company for half of his 
> adult life and then pay him for not working the other half, that too is 
> "greed", or "screwing" the other side.
>
> Herb,
>  I think we have reached an impasse at this point on solutions and I hope
> you will agree that both sides 
> in the Management vs Labor discussion are guilty of abuse of power and are
> motivated by greed at times over reason. But I feel an obligation to explain
> my opinion of the "capitalists" in the hopes of furthering your
> understanding of my position even if you don't agree. Please note I am not
> looking for a sympathetic ear or making anyone out to be a victim. 
>  I grew up in one of the small mill towns that line the three rivers of
> Pittsburgh. During the 60s' and early 70s' management stopped making
> investments in keeping the mills there competitive. Instead US Steel took
> the profits made by 4 generations of labor and bought Marathon Oil for 7
> billion. by 1982
> the steel industry collapsed and the people of Pittsburgh paid the price. It
> got so bad at one point people were stealing groceries from one other in the
> parking lots. Unemployment in my home town hit 25%. Once I stood in a line
> for 5 hrs. with 6000 men because 6 jobs opened up sweeping floors at one of
> the surviving mills. You've probably heard the phrase "Steeler Nation" one
> of the reasons you see so many terrible towels at Steeler away games is
> because my generation and the following one had to leave our city to find
> work. The fun didn't stop there however, not only was there no work for the
> present generation the ones who retired saw pensions slashed or destroyed
> because one after another the companies filed for bankruptcy not because
> they were broke but rather they could make more by not living up to their
> pension obligations. My distain comes from personal experience and while I
> would like to see a less adversarial relationship between management and
> labor I fear this will never be. The law is structured in a way that
> corporations can walk away for their contracts under chapter 13 and I can
> not walk away from my contracts under the new bankruptcy laws. Quite frankly
> if this is capitalism you can keep as I have had quite enough of it for my
> liking. This will be my last post on this thread as I have nothing left to
> offer on the subject.
>
> Respectfully yours
>
> John Shulick   
>
>
>   

-- 
Herb Parsons