[Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
David Culp
dculp at hsbtx.com
Fri Jul 3 15:53:01 EDT 2009
Interesting discussion and I am not sure that I have experienced the
same thing others are reporting. Weather helm or lee helm has to do
where the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR) on the boat is in
relation to the Center of Effort (CE) on the sails (especially the
main). The further aft you can get the CE the more weather helm you
get. I am not a nautical engineer obviously, but since our small IMF
main has a small leech to avoid the backstays and to fit in the mast,
it is easy to see that we by design are destined for a little lee
helm. Other boats with bigger mains and fuller leechs are less prone.
One example that I get to sail sometimes is a Flying Scot (200 sq.
foot main vs. our IMF's 100) It never has lee helm no matter the sail
configuration used.
You can mitigate lee helm to a certain extent by choosing the longest
forestay length you can get and then tightening the aft lower stays to
rake the mast back as far as you can get it to take most of the slack
out of the forestay Then tighten the forward lower stays. Somebody
on the list posted some pictures awhile back of their boat with the
mast raked back. It was noticeably raked back-further then I am able
to get mine to go. That should help a lot; but you don't want to over
do it because when the wind picks up, you will have too much weather
helm and it will slow the boat down and wear you out having to hold
it. Mine is just slightly aft of plumb and it seems just fine to me.
Still in light air, I have just a bit of lee helm; but as the wind
comes up, the main becomes more effective and it goes away. This is
by design and nothing to worry about.
Some very good advice that Rummy gives and I have used is not to reef
the main until there is no other alternative. Since our main reefs
forward and not down; as you reef, you are moving the CE closer to the
CLR and lee-helm will increase meaning you can't carry as big a jib.
Drop the boom and reef the jib first. This helps with heeling angle
too. Also, if I remember from experimenting-putting the centerboard
down on my boat moves the CLR aft contributing to more lee helm. I
need to check that again to make sure, but I think that is what
happens.
So in light wind, if I need to point I go ahead and put the CB down
and play the lee-helm with the genoa all the way out. My 175 is blown
out, so my lee helm is worse then it has to be. With the CB up and
the mast raked back, I don't see any problems, just have to remember
to hold a little un-natural pressure on the tiller.
In strong wind, heeling angle always seems to be the overriding
concern to me and not lee helm. I leave the CB up and keep the
lowered main fully unfurled with just enough jib sheet in to stay in
balance (slight weather helm). I even sail the boat main only if
conditions warrant. You don't sail on a beat very fast and it is
harder to tack, but I can take a lot of wind that way. I found on
main only that it is easier to tack if you let the traveler out all
the way out to leeward. I also practice it on less windy days, so I
am ready when I need it.
David
Message: 25
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 22:06:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Leland <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Message-ID: <24317647.post at talk.nabble.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I can understand why a little weather helm is good, but when people say
their boats have a little weather helm I don't quite understand it. If my
sails are balanced I have no helm at all. If I have too much Genoa out I
get lee helm. If I have too little Genoa out I get weather helm. Aren't
all boats like that?
Lee
1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
Kent Island, MD
Alan Robertson-2 wrote:
>
> We have to reduce the size of the genoa during light airs to avoid lee
> helm. If wind picks up , if we tauten foot of the jib and let it out
> proportionately; it seems to work. No lee helm if on jib alone and
> downwind.
> Bigal
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cjlowe at sssnet.com<mailto:cjlowe at sssnet.com>
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
>
>
> Did you detach the forestay from the top of the mast,in the off season
> and
> maybe not get it back in the same holes it came out of for this season?
> Did you change size of the head sail,or get the sails cleaned? Maybe the
> main sail isn't deploying all the way out? That's all I can think of.
>
> Jerry Lowe
>
>
>
> The only other thing I can think of is weight distribution. We find
> > the boat sails better with some weight forward. We try to keep the
> > water tank (at the aft end of the v-berth on our boat) at least 2/3
> full.
> >
> > I seem to remember Stan saying that the boat should have lee to
> > neutral helm in light air and should produce slight weather helm in
> > heavier air.
> >
> > Mary Lou
> > 1991 R22 Fretless
> > Rock Hall, MD
> >
> > At 07:44 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:
> >>Somehow the center of force of the main is too far forward. Is your
> mast
> >>vertical to the centerline forward to aft? That ought not to be an
> issue
> >>with IMF with its wide cross section, unless your mast step is busted
> >> funny
> >>and tilting the mast forward. Can't think of anything, else. I
> assume
> >> your
> >>main sheet is taunt and keeping the boom within the back stays.
> >>
> >>On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Tom Bickerstaff
> <tabick at mchsi.com<mailto:tabick at mchsi.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> > With only the main unfurled, the helm wants to send the bow off the
> >> wind.
> >> > The topping lift is slack, the motor is all the way out of the
> water
> >> and
> >> > the centerboard is all the way down.
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From:
> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org<mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org>
> >> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rick
> >> > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:58 PM
> >> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> >> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
> >> >
> >> > What does your helm feel like with only the main unfurled? I
> assume
> >> your
> >> > topping lift is slack when the main is out, your motor is pulled
> all
> >> the
> >> > way
> >> > out of the water and your center/diamond board is all the way down.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Tom Bickerstaff
> <tabick at mchsi.com<mailto:tabick at mchsi.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I have IMF. So, what's the solution?
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From:
> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org<mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org>
> >> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rick
> >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:41 PM
> >> > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> >> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Bick,
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > A lee helm means your mainsail isn't pulling enough, assuming you
> >> have
> >> > IMF.
> >> > >
> >> > > If not IMF, your forestay could be too short.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Rick
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Tom Bickerstaff
> <tabick at mchsi.com<mailto:tabick at mchsi.com>>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > Help!
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > I seem to have a lee helm no matter how much jib I put out. It
> >> scares
> >> > > the
> >> > >
> >> > > > you-know-what out of me b/c I solo a lot. If I take a banger
> from
> >> the
> >> > > boom
> >> > >
> >> > > > or accidentally fall overboard, where the H will the boat end
> up?
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > Is my forestay too loose or too tight, or is there something
> else
> >> I
> >> > > should
> >> > >
> >> > > > look for as being the cause?
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > Thanks.
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > Bick
> >> > >
> >> > > __________________________________________________
> >> > > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> go
> >> to
> >> > > http://www.rhodes22.org/list<http://www.rhodes22.org/list>
> >> > > __________________________________________________
> >> > >
> >> > __________________________________________________
> >> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> to
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> >> >
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> >> >
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