[Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
Leland
LKUHN at cnmc.org
Fri Jul 3 22:05:52 EDT 2009
Rick,
Helpful post--thanks!
At the bottom is a picture of a little weather helm.
Lee
1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
Kent Island, MD
Rick-139 wrote:
>
>
>
> David,
>
> I find keeping the genny and main proportionality furled gives the best
> balance, least heel and most speed. The CE of the main doesn't seem to
> change much until it is furled more than 30%. The CE of the genny is
> easily moved aft by moving the sheet car forward.
>
> For instance, today I started out on a broad reach in 20 knots or so of
> wind
> with the boom down and the main at about 80%. Heel was about 15 deg and
> speed 4.5 knots. I furled the main back to 50% and unfurled the genny to
> 50% giving 5.2 knots of speed and heel less than 10 deg. And of course,
> neutral helm.
>
> If you have a true centerboard, lowering it half way should shift the CLR
> aft. However, I have the newer diamond board and haven't found it to
> affect
> helm pressure at any position. So in decent air, I just keep it all the
> way
> down at all points of sail except running before the wind.
>
> Rick
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 3:53 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
>
>> Interesting discussion and I am not sure that I have experienced the
>> same thing others are reporting. Weather helm or lee helm has to do
>> where the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR) on the boat is in
>> relation to the Center of Effort (CE) on the sails (especially the
>> main). The further aft you can get the CE the more weather helm you
>> get. I am not a nautical engineer obviously, but since our small IMF
>> main has a small leech to avoid the backstays and to fit in the mast,
>> it is easy to see that we by design are destined for a little lee
>> helm. Other boats with bigger mains and fuller leechs are less prone.
>> One example that I get to sail sometimes is a Flying Scot (200 sq.
>> foot main vs. our IMF's 100) It never has lee helm no matter the sail
>> configuration used.
>>
>> You can mitigate lee helm to a certain extent by choosing the longest
>> forestay length you can get and then tightening the aft lower stays to
>> rake the mast back as far as you can get it to take most of the slack
>> out of the forestay Then tighten the forward lower stays. Somebody
>> on the list posted some pictures awhile back of their boat with the
>> mast raked back. It was noticeably raked back-further then I am able
>> to get mine to go. That should help a lot; but you don't want to over
>> do it because when the wind picks up, you will have too much weather
>> helm and it will slow the boat down and wear you out having to hold
>> it. Mine is just slightly aft of plumb and it seems just fine to me.
>> Still in light air, I have just a bit of lee helm; but as the wind
>> comes up, the main becomes more effective and it goes away. This is
>> by design and nothing to worry about.
>>
>> Some very good advice that Rummy gives and I have used is not to reef
>> the main until there is no other alternative. Since our main reefs
>> forward and not down; as you reef, you are moving the CE closer to the
>> CLR and lee-helm will increase meaning you can't carry as big a jib.
>> Drop the boom and reef the jib first. This helps with heeling angle
>> too. Also, if I remember from experimenting-putting the centerboard
>> down on my boat moves the CLR aft contributing to more lee helm. I
>> need to check that again to make sure, but I think that is what
>> happens.
>>
>> So in light wind, if I need to point I go ahead and put the CB down
>> and play the lee-helm with the genoa all the way out. My 175 is blown
>> out, so my lee helm is worse then it has to be. With the CB up and
>> the mast raked back, I don't see any problems, just have to remember
>> to hold a little un-natural pressure on the tiller.
>>
>> In strong wind, heeling angle always seems to be the overriding
>> concern to me and not lee helm. I leave the CB up and keep the
>> lowered main fully unfurled with just enough jib sheet in to stay in
>> balance (slight weather helm). I even sail the boat main only if
>> conditions warrant. You don't sail on a beat very fast and it is
>> harder to tack, but I can take a lot of wind that way. I found on
>> main only that it is easier to tack if you let the traveler out all
>> the way out to leeward. I also practice it on less windy days, so I
>> am ready when I need it.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> Message: 25
>> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 22:06:36 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Leland <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> Message-ID: <24317647.post at talk.nabble.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>
>>
>> I can understand why a little weather helm is good, but when people say
>> their boats have a little weather helm I don't quite understand it. If
>> my
>> sails are balanced I have no helm at all. If I have too much Genoa out I
>> get lee helm. If I have too little Genoa out I get weather helm. Aren't
>> all boats like that?
>>
>> Lee
>> 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
>> Kent Island, MD
>>
>>
>> Alan Robertson-2 wrote:
>> >
>> > We have to reduce the size of the genoa during light airs to avoid lee
>> > helm. If wind picks up , if we tauten foot of the jib and let it out
>> > proportionately; it seems to work. No lee helm if on jib alone and
>> > downwind.
>> > Bigal
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: cjlowe at sssnet.com<mailto:cjlowe at sssnet.com>
>> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:36 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
>> >
>> >
>> > Did you detach the forestay from the top of the mast,in the off
>> season
>> > and
>> > maybe not get it back in the same holes it came out of for this
>> season?
>> > Did you change size of the head sail,or get the sails cleaned? Maybe
>> the
>> > main sail isn't deploying all the way out? That's all I can think
>> of.
>> >
>> > Jerry Lowe
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The only other thing I can think of is weight distribution. We find
>> > > the boat sails better with some weight forward. We try to keep the
>> > > water tank (at the aft end of the v-berth on our boat) at least 2/3
>> > full.
>> > >
>> > > I seem to remember Stan saying that the boat should have lee to
>> > > neutral helm in light air and should produce slight weather helm in
>> > > heavier air.
>> > >
>> > > Mary Lou
>> > > 1991 R22 Fretless
>> > > Rock Hall, MD
>> > >
>> > > At 07:44 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:
>> > >>Somehow the center of force of the main is too far forward. Is
>> your
>> > mast
>> > >>vertical to the centerline forward to aft? That ought not to be an
>> > issue
>> > >>with IMF with its wide cross section, unless your mast step is
>> busted
>> > >> funny
>> > >>and tilting the mast forward. Can't think of anything, else. I
>> > assume
>> > >> your
>> > >>main sheet is taunt and keeping the boom within the back stays.
>> > >>
>> > >>On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Tom Bickerstaff
>> > <tabick at mchsi.com<mailto:tabick at mchsi.com>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > With only the main unfurled, the helm wants to send the bow off
>> the
>> > >> wind.
>> > >> > The topping lift is slack, the motor is all the way out of the
>> > water
>> > >> and
>> > >> > the centerboard is all the way down.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > -----Original Message-----
>> > >> > From:
>> > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org<mailto:
>> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org>
>> > >> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rick
>> > >> > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:58 PM
>> > >> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> > >> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
>> > >> >
>> > >> > What does your helm feel like with only the main unfurled? I
>> > assume
>> > >> your
>> > >> > topping lift is slack when the main is out, your motor is pulled
>> > all
>> > >> the
>> > >> > way
>> > >> > out of the water and your center/diamond board is all the way
>> down.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Tom Bickerstaff
>> > <tabick at mchsi.com<mailto:tabick at mchsi.com>>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > I have IMF. So, what's the solution?
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > >> > > From:
>> > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org<mailto:
>> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org>
>> > >> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rick
>> > >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:41 PM
>> > >> > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> > >> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Bick,
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > A lee helm means your mainsail isn't pulling enough, assuming
>> you
>> > >> have
>> > >> > IMF.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > If not IMF, your forestay could be too short.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Rick
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Tom Bickerstaff
>> > <tabick at mchsi.com<mailto:tabick at mchsi.com>>
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > Help!
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > I seem to have a lee helm no matter how much jib I put out.
>> It
>> > >> scares
>> > >> > > the
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > you-know-what out of me b/c I solo a lot. If I take a
>> banger
>> > from
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > boom
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > or accidentally fall overboard, where the H will the boat
>> end
>> > up?
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > Is my forestay too loose or too tight, or is there something
>> > else
>> > >> I
>> > >> > > should
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > look for as being the cause?
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > Thanks.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > Bick
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > __________________________________________________
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