[Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)

[Rick]

David,

I hate to be the wet blanket again.  But racing sailboats is a whole 'nother
market.  The key to convincing a customer to buy a sailboat for racing is to
convince him or her that they will have lots of other sailboats to race
against.

In the one design game, it involves high volume production and a
distribution system that can execute geographically concentrated sales and
support. J Boats has been successful doing that in the Great Lakes with the
J 22 and other longer models. Plus, J Boats has a respectable history of
maintaining one design integrity.

Of course, there's always PHRF racing.  But how many 20 - 25 foot cruising
sailboat owners are left with an interest in racing?

Unlike 30 years ago, most people today who buy cruising or day sailing boats
in the low 20's length are first timers.  From there, they either drop out
or they move to larger boats more popular for cruising, racing or both.
Catalina and Hunter have turned the market into that by making cheap starter
boats people can easily abandon for yachts.  Stan's main problem is he now
has a product that goes against the prevailing mindset that has evolved for
his market.

Did you read the article "The Little Boat that Could" in August issue of
Sailing?  The title itself is a reflection of that mindset.  And despite all
kinds of compliments about the R22, the piece ends with:  "More important,
where does one get a new tiller for a Rhodes 22?"  That's some insult to a
builder who has admirably supported his product for decades.  But again,
that's part of the same mindset.

Rick

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:04 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:

> Rick:
> What I am saying is that this boat is unique and I can't go down to the
> local boatyard and get some of the major parts that I might need.  Also, I
> can't send an email or make a phone call to the guy who built the boat at
> most places and expect a response.  That's probably worth something to keep
> the operation rolling as long as Stan does his part.  I don't think you
> ought to pay royalty/loyalty if you don't get anything for it.  If the
> group
> feels we are getting something worth paying for, then I'm just suggesting a
> small stipend annually to Stan which if everyone participates might be a
> better solution then a percentage up front facing new owners for
> loyalty/royalty.  The 5% on the seller side will figure into the price and
> it gets the new owner out of any obligation to pay a royalty/loyalty up
> front for two years.  Then, continued association membership will require
> the annual dues.
>
> Imagine if you bought a Ford or Chevy used and then were asked to send a 5%
> fee to the factory.  Nobody would... but this is not a Ford or Chevy.  I
> figure some type of ongoing support is probably reasonable as long as we
> get
> good owner support and parts availability.  For example, if someone comes
> along and hits my rudder in the slip and I need a new one, there ought to
> be
> a spare waiting at the factory to ship out.   If someone blows a sail out,
> there should be one ready to ship and the right color too.  I don't know if
> this is the case at GBI because spare parts mean overhead and I don't know
> how much overhead Stan is willing to carry.  Maybe parts for non-members
> ought to carry a premium that members don't have to pay-so another added
> incentive to be one of the family.
>
> I hear what you are saying about the market.  Long term, owners are not
> going to be the ones to keep GBI afloat.  You have got to get new customers
> through the door.  There have been a lot of good suggestions given by a lot
> of experienced people on the list.  My experiences with family run
> businesses are that we are very happy to take your money but you can keep
> your advice to yourself.  However, Stan seems open to some suggestions.
>
> Stan has an excellent product, more people need to know about it as someone
> has mentioned.  A new boat is becoming cost prohibitive for most,  the
> recycling is a good second market but I think you need a "less frills"
> model
> to get younger couples through the doors.  You would have to be able to
> build it with the same quality, using the same molds at an attractive price
> point and I don't know if that is possible.  I thought maybe a stripped
> down
> racing version might be a solution.  Racers don't need much down below and
> will pay for quality above.  The Rhodes is faster then a Catalina to being
> with and that would appeal to a lot of people.
>
> Just my thoughts,
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:28:36 -0400
> From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <52e9a140907261428v6feebf53l4e923711b987ec30 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> David,
>
> When I was considering buying my R22, the PO said, "I can give you the home
> phone number of the guy who makes the boat and he will talk to you at any
> time."  Of course, that tilted me to buy his boat and subsequently buy many
> things from Stan.
>
> Are you suggesting Stan discontinues this attractive offering in the
> shrunken marketplace for pocket cruiser sailboats?  I think it will just
> turn customers toward high volume boats where technical information and
> spare parts are readily available.
>
> Rick
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
>
> > Stan:
> >
> > Thank you for your insight into the business.  I dare say that most
> > sailboat
> > owners don't get the inside track on happenings at the factory; if the
> > factory is even still in business that is.
> >
> > I want to comment on the loyalty/royalty program concerning the Rhodes.
>  My
> > experience in boat ownership over the years is that a used boat purchaser
> > always spends the maximum funds set aside for the purchase.  Either the
> > purchase price and the taxes consume the entire amount or the new owner
> > takes any funds left and applies them to things the boat needs.  And we
> all
> > know that used boats need something all the time.
> >
> > It is a bit of a sticky wicket let's say, to request from a new owner 5 %
> > of
> > the purchase price be paid to GBI when they have probably spent more
> money
> > then they intended to begin with.  The Rhodes 22 is the top of the scale
> in
> > 22' boats and used prices are not cheap.  We see it all the time on the
> > list...  Folks are interested in the Rhodes but they are trying to
> purchase
> > it on a "Catalina" budget; so they "lurk" on the list either saving up
> > their
> > cash or hoping to see a cheap boat come up for sale whereby they promptly
> > go
> > off-list and complete the transaction.
> >
> > You will remember in my case, that I sent GBI a check for $ 200.00 to
> cover
> > the promotional materials you sent me-but that was not 5% of the price I
> > paid.  In the meantime, I have enjoyed the technical support that I have
> > received as a member of the list from the owners and from yourself.  That
> > is
> > worth something, even though I didn't realize it in the beginning.   This
> > boat and this list are pretty unique to the boating world.
> >
> > I propose and this will make some people on this list unhappy, in fact,
> > very
> > unhappy.... An Owner's association with an annual fee.  For that annual
> > fee,
> > you have got to provide something however.  Which is another problem with
> a
> > royalty fee upfront; people always need to feel that they are getting
> > something for their money.   In this case, for the annual association
> fee:
> >
> > Admission to the list
> > Technical support either from members or the factory
> > Availability and a price list of parts, sails, etc. that is kept up to
> date
> > so I can purchase it from you if I need something.
> >
> >
> > Except for the parts and prices, this is pretty much what we are doing
> > already.  Maybe you could come up with some member specials on pricing
> from
> > time to time for sails or parts or write an occasional article that only
> > members would get.  I don't want to burden you with a bunch of extra
> work,
> > but there needs to be something unique about membership.  In this way,
> the
> > new owner would feel they are getting something and it would generate
> > revenue for you over the longer term.  As part of the membership, if we
> > agree to give you 5% of the selling price when we sell, then I don't have
> a
> > problem with it; especially if the list helps my estate sell the boat.
> >  I'll
> > even stipulate it in my will.  I figure if I owe a "loyalty fee", it is
> > probably to the list members who have taken their time and been so
> helpful
> > over the years.  If paying you a "royalty" fee helps keep GBI in business
> > then that helps them and you.  As a seller, if I pay 5% then it gets my
> > buyer on the list free for two years.  Then he/she can do the responsible
> > thing and start paying their own royalty/loyalty dues.
> >
> > The other situation which started the discussion in the beginning has to
> do
> > with after-market products or other parts unique to the Rhodes.  If a
> > member
> > has an after-market item to sell to the list which is unique to the
> Rhodes
> > and/or would normally be available from GBI for sale, then he/she goes
> > through you.  They can advertise it and discuss it; but I buy it from you
> > after you have added your mark up or it cannot be advertised on the
> > member's
> > list by another member or by a third party.  Simple as that.  They are a
> > supplier of General Boats and you are the distributor to me.  Obviously,
> > the
> > list membership information is kept proprietary to prevent direct
> marketing
> > by a third party.  If a member tries to go behind your back... we can
> take
> > care of that.  If something comes up for sale on the open-market that is
> > unique to the Rhodes 22 and there are legal issues, then that is a
> > discussion for lawyers and not for this forum.
> >
> > Right now MJM is administering the list.  I think he or whomever takes on
> > those duties gets their membership free.
> >
> > I hope you will take these suggestions under advisement and if it is of
> > interest, let us know what you think the annual membership fee should be.
> >
> > For everyone else, let the flaming begin....  But just keep in mind what
> > the
> > purpose is here.  Trying to come up with something palatable to help GBI
> > now
> > and us in the long run.
> >
> > David
> >
> > PS:
> >
> > Other thoughts:  The Rhodes 22 website is "technically" one of the best I
> > have ever seen as far as the boat information goes.  However, it needs
> some
> > polish to be a more effective marketing tool.  More timely information
> and
> > more emphasis on the recycle program and availability of used boats comes
> > to
> > mind since new boat sales are down.  Also, have you ever considered a new
> > "entry level"  boat without all the bells and whistles which someone
> could
> > purchase at a bit lower price?  You've talked about a racer before.
>  Could
> > you come up with something without having to have new molds-marketed as a
> > "Sport" Rhodes 22?   Lower the interior weight, put a standard mast and
> > racing sails on it and a spinaker.  Catalina has a "sport model" and it
> > does
> > pretty well I think.  Just some ideas I have batted around. dc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:46:52 -0400
> > From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Message-ID: <038FA83D95464CCFB609CA722206B2D8 at rhodes>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Rose and I want to thank you all for indulging GB in the use of your
> forum
> > on an issue that is so basic to GB.
> >
> > We want to thank those that take issue with our position but attempt to
> be
> > evenhanded.  (If academically interested, we can provide exhibits and
> > witnesses that prove the accuracy of our facts.)
> >
> > We are empathetic with those who chafe at this sort of thing and remain
> > silent - in our younger days we probably would have done the same.   It
> was
> > not until 50 that we adopted our tribe's slogan of  "never again" and
> took
> > on anyone who wronged us:  A policeman.  A lawyer.  a station wagon full
> of
> > nuns (just kidding about the station wagon), a giant corporation to
> > docketing at the US Supreme Court.   We prevailed in all these pro se
> > actions simply because we do not complain unless the facts and logic are
> > solidly on our side - but we digress.
> >
> > And, in particular, we want to thank those who understand the logical
> side
> > of our position and offered suggestions.
> >
> >
> > Re the issue of the Loyalty/Royalty program:   Its reasoning seems so
> > correct that it is hard to comprehend dissent.  Those thinking us crazy
> for
> > such radical thinking have to sit in this chair for just one day.
> > Interestingly, dissenters enjoy products from many segments of industry
> who
> > have already worked out such support programs, yet these dissenters seem
> to
> > be drawing their own grandfather clause line as to which industries
> should
> > not be entitled to residuals on their efforts.   Those in this group have
> > but to request and we will expand on the good sense of this program.   It
> > has been emotionally gratifying seeing former members of the "You must be
> > crazy" society, when, becoming members of the "List" family, seeing the
> > light and converting.
> >
> > Re the issue of the 50 years creating a unique product now having others
> > take bites of its parts for their unilateral gain, if not resolved, will
> > come home to bite us all.   ( When I walked out of the hallowed halls of
> > ole
> > PU I vowed not to go into business because I could not stand the ethics I
> > saw, and assumed, had to go with that territory.  But it was
> pre-ordained;
> > I
> > ended up spending most of my life a driving capitalist.   And it has been
> a
> > blast, for me and my partner of 60 years - because we made the making of
> > money our secondary goal.   (The effects of that kind of religious fervor
> > has surprisingly turned out to be rough on our opponents.)   There are
> ways
> > we can go to stop the taking of free bites of the profitable parts side
> of
> > GB's business::
> >
> > When we sold Venture Sailboats (Macgregor), dealers could buy sails
> > elsewhere and make an additional profit on Roger's creation at Roger's
> > expense.  Roger, who graduated at the top of his class at Stamford,
> simply
> > raised the price of his boat and included sails.  Being the tough
> business
> > man he is, he did it without notice and dealers had to eat their sail
> > inventories they bought elsewhere.  We are slow learners but could price
> > Rhodes sales to include a part an outside seller has latched onto.    Or,
> >
> > We could simply be unresponsive to boat owners who purchase parts, unique
> > to
> > the Rhodes design, from others in competition with GB or who fail to
> honor
> > agreements with GB.   We inherently do not like this retaliatory type of
> > solution, but it is a solution.   Or
> >
> > We could simply close shop and that would close the market for
> unauthorized
> > parts vendors.   This "cutting off ones nose" solution is not our choice.
> >  However, not taking on rogue suppliers, eating away at the life cash
> flow
> > of the company, makes it an inevitable solution.
> >
> >
> > In an effort to avoid any of the above solutions, based on the thinking
> of
> > List members in this particular complaint of GB vs. Art C, we have some
> > proposals that we will present to the List next week for your appreciated
> > feedback.  The pro bono time we are having to devote to the problems and
> > questions of private sale Rhodes is becoming so overwhelming (and we hate
> > to
> > be mean spirited enough to tell them where to go) that we just can't seem
> > to
> > manage all of this issue in one sitting.
> >
> > ss
> > __________________________________________________
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> > __________________________________________________
> >
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