[Rhodes22-list] Failed forestay backup suggestion

Arthur H. Czerwonky czerwonky at earthlink.net
Tue Jul 28 15:30:00 EDT 2009 

Michael,

Sorry about the earthlink email system.  It has happened before, although not normally.

Draw a rough side view of a sailboat with shrouds shown as lines.  The forward-most line is the genoa/forestay combination.  Forestays and pins never fail so you may not want to read further.  The front tip of the bow pulpit, which you should also draw in, is in front of the stay.  If it is not, please take your boat to Stan.  Draw a line from the top of the mast to the tip, then downward to the bow eye.  That's all, folks, according to Woody Woodpecker.

Now, your experience and your judgement on 'whether' is entirely your own, I  am just sharing a tidbit of helpful information with the fleet.  Why do we need nine stays on a 22' boat,  Ask Stan?  Most manufacturers would call this overkill.  My prime objective is to provide a spinnaker furler picture which others could use, and the swell 'backup' feature is just along for the ride......   and the safety.  I have also suggested, in response to John Lock's email that this can be accomplished in another simpler way.  

Comprende?

Art

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
>Sent: Jul 28, 2009 2:27 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Failed forestay backup suggestion
>
>Art,
>
>Maybe you need photos.  I have now rec'd this 3 times and it still makes 
>little sense.
>
>The mast will not fall if the bowstay fails!
>
>In my nearly 30 years with the R22 in all kinds of LI Sound squalls, the 
>loss of the bowstay, twice, has caused no catastrophe.  The worst of it was 
>having a partially furled genny swinging about the foredeck.  Once lashed to 
>the mast using excess topping lift line, I was able to drop the main and 
>then restore the integrity of the bowstay - the first time the pin simply 
>fell out and the second instance the fastpin had actually split from years 
>of wear.  That is why I carry spares and tie the fastpin ring to a safety 
>line attached to the bow pulpit.
>
>Why would we need a second bowstay?
>
>Mike
>s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>Nissequogue River, NY
>
>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net> Tuesday, July 28, 2009 
>2:04 PM
>> You may get this twice, as my email didn't send the first time, I believe. 
>> I changed the subject line to ais and assist innocent archive users - guys 
>> we need to do this with our epistles.
>>
>>
>> Ben,
>>
>> The forestay is possibly our most vulnerable point on the boat with only 
>> the two lower forward shrouds as backup when the sail could be full in a 
>> heavy wind on a close haul.  In back of the mast we have four wires in 
>> place, which is alot.
>>
>> Your experience makes me shudder, yet could happen to any of us.  I will 
>> not be in St Pete to take pictures I can post in November, but maybe the 
>> installation can be acted on without.  This rig addition is in place for a 
>> furling spinnaker but applies also as a 'backup stay' for the forestay and 
>> furling genoa.  A 1/8' SS wire is fixed to the masthead in front of the 
>> forestay and brought to, and fixed to the front tip of the bow pulpit. 
>> This bow pulpit fixture (can be as simple as a SS sliding jaw, $4.99 at 
>> Marineparts.com) has a 5/32" SS wire which is then fixed to the bow eye 
>> assembly below.  Call this a cheap sprit-like option, if you will, but 
>> provides a backup option.
>>
>> Now let's say the bow pulpit fails and forward lowers do not hold the 
>> strain  -  The two 'spinnaker furler' wires will tighten against each 
>> other without the pulpit rail in place.  The tip of the mast will fall 
>> backward a few feet, but the safety of the after-mast area and cockpit 
>> occupants should be secure.  It never hurts to have a measure of 
>> redundancy, just in case.  There is no charge or commission for this oh, 
>> so sage advise!  We'll could call it loyalty to the fleet for now.
>>
>> Art
>> s/v Mary Jane
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Ben Schultz <benonvelvetelvis at theskinnyonbenny.com>
>>>Sent: Jul 28, 2009 12:16 PM
>>>To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and elimination 
>>>of compression post. (final update and an anecdote on rigging tension))
>>>
>>>I was younger, dumber, and more limber back then.  Not sure I would be 
>>>able
>>>to do the same today.
>>>
>>>Maybe I am just as dumb today -- I'd probably still give it the ol' 
>>>college
>>>try.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rick
>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:09
>>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and elimination 
>>>of
>>>compression post. (final update and an anecdote on rigging tension))
>>>
>>>Ben,
>>>
>>>You did better than me.  I just managed to tie the furler drum to the bow
>>>pulpit with the furling line and motored home for about 3 miles in 3 foot
>>>waves.
>>>
>>>Rick
>>>
>>>On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Ben Schultz <
>>>benonvelvetelvis at theskinnyonbenny.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's good that it didn't come out, but one of the features of your 
>>>> Rhodes
>>>> is
>>>> that if you lose one of your shrouds, the other two should keep your 
>>>> mast
>>>> upright.  I've had that happen in the past -- not under heavy conditions
>>>--
>>>> and it wasn't scary at all.
>>>>
>>>> The worst problem I had was maybe a month after the boat was delivered.
>>>>  The
>>>> forward stay/genoa came disconnected under sail on a windy day with
>>>rolling
>>>> waves.  I was able to furl the sail, go forward with a spare pin, lie on
>>>my
>>>> belly, and after several tries, use the momentum of the wave action to
>>>drop
>>>> it into place.  I'm sure it took several tries to grab it and get the 
>>>> pin
>>>> through, but I succeeded and then continued to sail.
>>>>
>>>> The lesson there is that even though they aren't super far in front of 
>>>> the
>>>> mast, the most forward shrouds will keep the mast from falling into the
>>>> cockpit.  What a disaster that would be!
>>>>
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of R Orkin
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 19:51
>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and 
>>>> elimination
>>>> of
>>>> compression post. (final update and an anecdote on rigging tension))
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Having similar experience, I always use rigging tape over the cotter 
>>>> rings
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Shulick wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > OH WHY CAN'T I GET THIS RIGHT ARRGH!!!!!
>>>> >
>>>> > Any how,
>>>> >
>>>> >  I've now been sailing over the past month with the rigging set at the
>>>> > same tensions we discussed earlier. Namely 240 lbs on the side stays 
>>>> > and
>>>> > 120 on the baby stays. I have sailed the boat in various conditions
>>>> > culminating in a 3 hr beat up wind in 15 to 20 mph with gusts to 25. 1
>>>to
>>>> > 2 ft chop with the boom down and the Standard main reefed. Genoa out 
>>>> > to
>>>1
>>>> > foot shy of the baby stays using both sheet leads on the genoa to
>>>> position
>>>> > the clew inside the deck. 45 degrees off the wind, boat speed was 2-3
>>>> kts.
>>>> > Listening to the IMF mainsail discussion I can report the standard 
>>>> > main
>>>> > boats dont seem to have any problems tacking into the wind on a reefed
>>>> > main but the boat needs to have a bit of speed (1 kt or so ) and you
>>>must
>>>> > be decisive in putting the helm over. I also keep a canoe paddle handy
>>>> and
>>>> > found a couple of vigorous strokes can make the difference bringing 
>>>> > the
>>>> > nose around. The cabin seems fine with the interior mods and I can
>>>report
>>>> > to Rummy the separation he observed before has not changed at all. 
>>>> > Next
>>>> > years repairs will remedy that. One quick story on rig tension 
>>>> > however.
>>>> On
>>>> > one of my sails I had perfect winds for me 5 to 8 mph and steady with 
>>>> > no
>>>> > gusts or direction changes (Kinzua routinely has 90 to 100 Degree wind
>>>> > shifts as it swirls around the mountains). So I had the main up and 
>>>> > the
>>>> > genoa all out (A first for me) and was buzzing along 4.5 to 5.5 kts 
>>>> > and
>>>> 10
>>>> > to 15 degrees of heel. Hand a great time finished up and docked the
>>>boat.
>>>> > When getting ready to leave I spot something shiny on the port side
>>>> > walkway. Looking I find the circular retaining ring has come out of 
>>>> > the
>>>> > pin used to attach the port side stay to the chainplate. If that pin 
>>>> > had
>>>> > fallen out I would have lost the port side stay in the middle of the
>>>sail
>>>> > possibly leading to disaster. Only the pre loaded tension on that wire
>>>> > kept the pin in place.
>>>> >
>>>> > John Shulick
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > John Shulick wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> Rory Orkin
>>>> Tilghman, Md
>>>> 2000 Recycled  Rhodes 22
>>>> Duet ll
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>http://www.nabble.com/Re-design-of-Rhodes-Interior-and-elimination-of-compre
>>>>
>>>>
>>>ssion-post.-%28final-update-and-an-anecdote-on-rigging-tension%29%29-tp24689
>>>>
>>>740p24690795.html<http://www.nabble.com/Re-design-of-Rhodes-Interior-and-eli
>>>mination-of-compre%0Assion-post.-%28final-update-and-an-anecdote-on-rigging-
>>>tension%29%29-tp24689%0A740p24690795.html>
>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
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>>
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>> 
>
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