[Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim
Michael D. Weisner
mweisner at ebsmed.com
Tue Jul 28 16:53:02 EDT 2009
Deck Apes, Rail Meat, French Maidens, oh my!
From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com> Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:34 PM
>I personally prefer young French maidens as deck apes.
>
> Rummy
>
>
> In a message dated 7/28/2009 12:01:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> sloopblueheron at gmail.com writes:
>
> Lou,
>
> They can't be bought, only Shanghaied.
>
> Rick
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Lou Rosenberg <lsr3 at nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dave
>>
>> Where can I buy Deck Apes?
>> they're not in the WM catalog?
>>
>> Lou
>>
>> On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:52 AM, David Walker wrote:
>>
>> > I've tried to stay quiet while watching these posts fly by but I
>> > have to
>> > make a few comments.
>> >
>> > 1) The R22 sails basically like a big dinghy. It really wants to sail
>> > relatively flat. This gives maximum depth to the CB, least wetted
>> > surface
>> > and best hull form factor in the water. All heel does is
>> > effectively lower
>> > the sails, create weather helm and portentially pull the rudder out
>> > of the
>> > water. If the rudder is partially out of the water due to heel, it
>> > is less
>> > effective and requires more angle which creates drag and can stall the
>> > rudder. Some (not all) keel boats can sail faster with significant
>> > heeling
>> > because they are designed with significant hull overhangs which add
>> > waterline length whwn heeling. This usually comes about due to
>> > specific
>> > racing class design formulas.
>> >
>> > All that being said the ways to reduce heal are to a) use deck
>> > apes, b) reef
>> > sails and c) trim sails to maximize lift and minimize drag
>> >
>> > 2) All CB boats will sail better on the wind with the board down.
>> > Water
>> > passing by the boards leading edge at the leeway angle creates lift
>> > which
>> > keeps the boat going intoo the wind. The lateral resistance of the
>> > board is
>> > mimimal compared to the sails. There is no reason (healing, light
>> > air,
>> > heavy air) to sail on the wind with the board up. The amount of
>> > board down
>> > can be experimented with to modify weather/lee helm as the CE
>> > (center of
>> > effort) of the board will change relative to the CE of the sails
>> > has the
>> > board is lowered. On a run, racing sailors will raise the board to
>> > reduce
>> > drag, but you will find that makes steering more difficult as the
>> > board and
>> > the rudder combine to create directional stability.
>> >
>> > For those interested I reccommend a small paper back book entitled
>> > "Sail
>> > Trim - Theory and Practice" by Peter Hahne, published by Sheridan
>> > House. He
>> > describes in detail, trimming techniques to use to optimize sail
>> > trim for
>> > all conditions.
>> >
>> >
>> > David Walker
>> >
>> > www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>> >
>> > Event Specialists
>> >
>> > 781-639-2707 Office
>> > 781-718-8690 Cell
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
>> > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:07 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> John,
>> >>
>> >> That makes sense. If the boat normally heels less with the
>> >> centerboard
>> >> up,
>> >> it stands to reason that it would also heel less in a big gust of
>> >> wind.
>> >>
>> >> Lee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> jlock wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Actually I think it is the opposite. With the board up, a gust will
>> >>> tend to push the hull sideways more easily and expend some energy
>> >>> doing so, producing less heel. But with the board down, it will
>> >>> offer
>> >>> resistance to the sideways push of the gust at a very low angle.
>> >>> The
>> >>> results will be more heel above the waterline.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers!
>> >>> John Lock
>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >>> s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
>> >>> Lake Sinclair, GA
>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >>>
>> >>> On Jul 27, 2009, at 13:41, MichaelT wrote:
>> >>>> I'll have to balance the compromises here w/ needing to get
>> >>>> somewhere vs a
>> >>>> relaxing time.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Btw, how real is the risk of a knockdown w/ the board up?
>> >>>> Has there been any reported knockdowns with the board up?
>> >>>> I suppose if a BIG gust came across and the board was up that the
>> >>>> boat will
>> >>>> react and heel much easier.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Michael
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Michael,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> These 'board up' options are a new one to me, partly because I
>> >>>>> began
>> >>>>> serious sailing in a racing mode. I do not know of anyone who
>> >>>>> would beat
>> >>>>> into the wind with the board up in competition, certainly due to
>> >>>>> slippage,
>> >>>>> which Hank emphasizes so well, but also the risk of knockdown. I
>> >>>>> have
>> >>>>> never tried it, Michael, but I'd approach this technique with
>> >>>>> caution,
>> >>>>> especially if your wife is aboard.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Happy sailing,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Art
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>> From: MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> Sent: Jul 27, 2009 9:56 AM
>> >>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks for the first hand knowledge wrt the centerboard.
>> >>>>>> You've certainly changed the fundamentals of my logic. Womehow my
>> >>>>>> flawed
>> >>>>>> thinking was that with the board up that the Rhodes would heel
>> >>>>>> more and
>> >>>>>> difficult to turn. On the contrary, the Rhodes actually sails
>> >>>>>> better (i.e.
>> >>>>>> less heel, easy to to turn) with the board up. Definitely
>> >>>>>> something I will
>> >>>>>> do this week.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks Lee!
>> >>>>>> Michael
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Leland wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Michael,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> With the board down it will allow you to sail closer to the
>> wind
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>> make
>> >>>>>>> better headway (less drifting).
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> However, the faster you go the less impact the board will
>> >>>>>>> have on
>> >>>>>>> both
>> >>>>>>> sailing close to the wind and headway. The board is most useful
>> >>>>>>> if you
>> >>>>>>> want to make headway in light wind.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I'm a daysailor so the only time I need to make better
>> >>>>>>> headway is
>> >>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>> it's
>> >>>>>>> necessary to get back to my marina at the end of the day. With
>> >>>>>>> yesterday's high wind and the current and chop pushing me away
>> >>>>>>> from the
>> >>>>>>> wind, I never once lowered my board and sailed part of the time
>> >>>>>>> on broad
>> >>>>>>> reaches and runs. On tacks the boat turned like a sports car.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> With the board down it will act as a pivot point and allow
>> >>>>>>> you to
>> >>>>>>> turn
>> >>>>>>> easier whether you are tacking or motoring around your slip. I
>> >>>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>> use
>> >>>>>>> if for either one.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I've measured my speed countless times with the board up and
>> >>>>>>> down
>> >>>>>>> and it
>> >>>>>>> has always had a negative impact on speed. I think the term
>> >>>>>>> is VMG
>> >>>>>>> (velocity made good?) which measures how much headway you're
>> >>>>>>> actually
>> >>>>>>> making. If I could figure out how to measure it on my GPS I'm
>> >>>>>>> sure it
>> >>>>>>> would show that the board helps, but with the reduction in
>> speed
>> >>>>>>> it sure
>> >>>>>>> doesn't seem that way.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Lee
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> MichaelT wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Lee,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I was just thinking about bringing the centerboard up as you
>> >>>>>>>> suggested,
>> >>>>>>>> but have concerns.
>> >>>>>>>> Did you flip bringing the centerboard up and down. Down when
>> >>>>>>>> tacking
>> >>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>> up after the tack?
>> >>>>>>>> I remember when I forgot to let the centerboard down and all I
>> >>>>>>>> could
>> >>>>>>>> remember was going sideways and difficulty in making
>> >>>>>>>> headway. In
>> >>>>>>>> essence
>> >>>>>>>> the boat was slipping and pushed sideways by the wind when the
>> >>>>>>>> centerboard is up. I suppose as long as we don't need to be
>> >>>>>>>> anywhere
>> >>>>>>>> soon
>> >>>>>>>> this is all fine.
>> >>>>>>>> At the end I'll have to let my wife judge!
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Great suggestion!
>> >>>>>>>> Michael
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Michael,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> You're getting lots of good advice.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> You'll have a little less heel with the board up. From the
>> >>>>>>>>> Rhodes
>> >>>>>>>>> Owners' Site under FAQs under Rhodes vs. Com-Pac vs.
>> >>>>>>>>> Precisions: 5.
>> >>>>>>>>> Retract the centerboard part way in a big breeze. The board is
>> >>>>>>>>> intentionally modest in weight, and does not contribute
>> >>>>>>>>> significantly
>> >>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>> stability up or down. Raising the board part way will reduce
>> >>>>>>>>> both heel
>> >>>>>>>>> and weather helm.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> The quote refers to Precisions. If I raise the board all the
>> >>>>>>>>> way on
>> >>>>>>>>> my
>> >>>>>>>>> Rhodes it usually only reduces heel by about 3 degrees but
>> >>>>>>>>> your
>> >>>>>>>>> wife
>> >>>>>>>>> may
>> >>>>>>>>> appreciate it.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> In an 8-10 knot wind, lowering the boom will reduce heel
>> also.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> As Dave mentioned the boat sails better with two sails.
>> >>>>>>>>> For the
>> >>>>>>>>> amount
>> >>>>>>>>> of wind you described you probably weren't going fast
>> >>>>>>>>> enough to
>> >>>>>>>>> tack.
>> >>>>>>>>> Come off the wind enough to get up some speed and you'll then
>> >>>>>>>>> be able
>> >>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>> turn her sharply into the wind.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> When I first got my Rhodes I typically had too much sail out.
>> >>>>>>>>> You
>> >>>>>>>>> were
>> >>>>>>>>> wise to be conservative in your sail plan, but without any
>> >>>>>>>>> headsail
>> >>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>> so little main you probably couldn't get enough speed to tack
>> >>>>>>>>> even if
>> >>>>>>>>> you had come off the wind. Last week I was in a 12 knot wind.
>> >>>>>>>>> On a
>> >>>>>>>>> close reach with balanced sails with the board up and my 190
>> >>>>>>>>> lbs of
>> >>>>>>>>> rail
>> >>>>>>>>> meat, I had less than 20 degrees of heel with the boom up and
>> >>>>>>>>> the main
>> >>>>>>>>> reefed to 80%. With the boom down I had the same heel with
>> >>>>>>>>> 100% main.
>> >>>>>>>>> I have my mainsail furling line marked for reefs at 60% and
>> >>>>>>>>> 80%. If I
>> >>>>>>>>> have to reef the tiny little main beyond 60%, it's too windy
>> >>>>>>>>> for me
>> >>>>>>>>> (over 20 knots) and I go home.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Good luck!
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Lee
>> >>>>>>>>> 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
>> >>>>>>>>> Kent Island, MD
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> david.walker5 wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Tacking with the jib, especially very light or heavy wind
>> >>>>>>>>>> can be
>> >>>>>>>>>> challenging
>> >>>>>>>>>> too. The problem is the jib is very powerfull and it
>> >>>>>>>>>> wants to
>> >>>>>>>>>> push
>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> boat
>> >>>>>>>>>> away from the tack. One technique that has worked for me is
>> >>>>>>>>>> something
>> >>>>>>>>>> I
>> >>>>>>>>>> borrowed from sailing a square rigger. When you push the
>> >>>>>>>>>> tiller to
>> >>>>>>>>>> lee,
>> >>>>>>>>>> loosen the jibe immediately, but do not let the sheet fly.
>> >>>>>>>>>> (for
>> >>>>>>>>>> those
>> >>>>>>>>>> interested its called scandalizing the jib) This reduces
>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> drive
>> >>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> sail and allows it to turn up wind. Just as the bow comes
>> >>>>>>>>>> into the
>> >>>>>>>>>> wind,
>> >>>>>>>>>> tighten the sheet a little. The wind will then backwind the
>> >>>>>>>>>> jib and
>> >>>>>>>>>> push the
>> >>>>>>>>>> bow the rest of the way onto the new tack. As you come
>> >>>>>>>>>> through
>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> wind, the
>> >>>>>>>>>> wind on the new tack will push the sail across to the new
>> >>>>>>>>>> tack. In
>> >>>>>>>>>> really
>> >>>>>>>>>> heavy wind you may end up "in stays" or headed into the
>> >>>>>>>>>> wind and
>> >>>>>>>>>> start
>> >>>>>>>>>> to be
>> >>>>>>>>>> pushed backwards. In that case as I said in an earlier
>> post,
>> >>>>>>>>>> shift
>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> rudder (tiller to windward) and the boat will back onto the
>> >>>>>>>>>> new tack
>> >>>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>> start to sail.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> David Walker
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Event Specialists
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> 781-639-2707 Office
>> >>>>>>>>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>>>>>> From: "Stephen Staum" <staum at earthlink.net>
>> >>>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:32 PM
>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I too have a wife who likes to sail flat. I have an '87 w a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> 184 per
>> >>>>>>>>>>> cent genoa. I usually start w 1/2 of the genny as the jib
>> >>>>>>>>>>> really
>> >>>>>>>>>>> powers this boat. Even w the full main out (alone) u will
>> >>>>>>>>>>> struggle
>> >>>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>> come about. Also, if u have the full jib out in light
>> winds,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> it can
>> >>>>>>>>>>> be
>> >>>>>>>>>>> very difficult 2 get the jib 2 come across when coming
>> >>>>>>>>>>> about.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> It is
>> >>>>>>>>>>> often easier 2 jibe or roll up 1/2 the jib b4 come about is
>> >>>>>>>>>>> started.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Enjoy!
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Staum
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:47 PM, MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Went out with the family on Sunday and wanted to play it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drew the IMF mainsail approx halfway on the boom (the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> letter
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> R on
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the sail
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't showing).
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wanted to keep things simple and used no jib. Centerboard
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> was down
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> way.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The boat stayed flat as a pancake which was the desired
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> effect.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My wife wants no heeling whatsoever. Problem I had was I
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It even had a hard time getting into irons and just
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> cutover.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The only way I could change direction was to spin 2/3's
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> around in a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> jibe.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to experiment and let out more sail so we
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> just
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> enjoyed
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sailing
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the next hour like this.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is this normal behaviour? What am I doing wrong?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Michael
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> tp24647946p24647946.html
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>> mailing
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>> >>>>>>>>>>> list go
>> >>>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>> >>>>>>>>>> list go
>> >>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> View this message in context:
>> >>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24681160.html
>> >>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>> >>>>>> go to
>> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>> >>>>> list go
>> >>>>> to
>> >>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> View this message in context:
>> >>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24685194.html
>> >>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>> >>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>> >>> go to
>> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> View this message in context:
>> >> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24698152.html
>> >> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>> >> go to
>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>> > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > __________________________________________________
>>
>> Lou Rosenberg
>> Videographer
>>
>> Steinhardt School of Culture, Education and
>> Human Development at NYU
>>
>> 239 Greene Street, Room 315
>> lsr3 at nyu.edu
>>
>> (212) 998-5122
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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