[Rhodes22-list] Subject: Re: Re design of Rhodes Interior and elimination of compressi...
Rick
sloopblueheron at gmail.com
Wed Jun 3 16:25:56 EDT 2009
John,
Aluminum dance pole? I have an oak one, but not for dancing (don't I
wish). Its a great help getting old bones in and out of the head. It also
defrays guests from grabbing the fiddle rail.
Rick
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:21 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
> John:
>
> I don't disagree from the standpoint of the wire breaking strength and your
> numbers are straight off the chart for 1/8 rigging. The question is, "What
> are we trying to accomplish?" Rummy's shrouds all go loose to leeward.
> They have been doing so for 15 years apparently and so far; the mast has
> not departed the boat nor does he have an aluminum dance pole in the cabin.
> That's a pretty good compromise I would say. From what Stan has written
> in the manual and on this forum, my impression is that Stan's
> recommendation
> is closer to Rummy's. What I have tried to do for myself is reach a
> compromise between all the different resources that I have read on how to
> tune, my experience on other boats and how others do it on this one; with a
> view to avoid damaging the boat and maximizing its performance. Like I
> said, I hand tighten to start with, use Mr. Loos to balance the settings
> and
> then sail the rig to make sure it is where I personally want it. If not, I
> keep tightening until I get it where I want it-Loos or Stan
> notwithstanding.
> At max heel angle. my shrouds are just starting to go loose, not flapping
> in the breeze. That is not very far beyond hand tight regardless of
> testosterone level, but well below the Loos recommendations based on wire
> size.
>
> If we really wanted to get technical with a Loos gauge, especially those of
> us with jib furlers and IMF mains, we would tune the rig before
> every outing. With no way to tension the halyard on either sail, one way
> we
> can control draft and entry angle is by adjusting the tightness of the rig
> especially the jib. We know that the wind speed and the state of the water
> that we will be sailing in determines if speed is more important then
> control or vice versa for the given day. Is pointing more important today
> or would I rather loosen the rig and move the draft back and have more
> speed? Again, what are we trying to accomplish? Personally, I don't have
> a
> lot of forestay tension left to play with because I have the mast raked
> back
> about as far as it will go. Why? because I am sailing with a bag of an old
> jib and am fighting lee helm. Hope to purchase a new one next year. So
> everyone's boat, sail combo and sailing venue is different which makes
> blanket recommendations tougher. I have read what Roger wrote. I think
> Roger raced the boat and that colored his approach to rigging in my opinion
> and it worked just fine for him. For most Rhodies, I think we are just
> trying to have a safe, good time. So we do a tune job at the beginning of
> the season, the cotter pins go in, the rum bottle comes out and that is the
> end of it until the next haul out.
>
> Someone somewhere in my boat's history apparently over-tightened the stays
> and it slightly deformed the cabin top. I repaired that and installed a
> compression post. No more worries. However, I am probably a little overly
> concerned about this issue because of my experiences. Rummy likes his rig
> loose, looser then me and his boat is probably faster as a result. On my
> narrow, smooth water lake, I need to point so I have it a little tighter.
> Still, I can't play any tunes on it. If you like yours tight as a banjo,
> I
> say go for it. We may all yet learn something from you which is the beauty
> of this list.
>
> My hope for you as a fellow Rhodie is that you enjoy your boat to the
> maximum extent possible and not damage it as to take time away from sailing
> it or spending more money on it. It is with this intent that I voiced my
> genuine concern. It's a lot easier to just hit the delete key then to try
> to help out sometimes. Thank goodness Rummy has lost his. I hope that
> you
> and all others on this forum will accept my comments in the spirit in which
> they are always intended. And that is, not that I am in any way smarter,
> but more like... have been there and done that. If they come across in a
> different tone, please accept my apologies.
>
> dc
>
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:55:29 -0700 (PDT)
> From: John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
> elimination of compressi...
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Message-ID: <23843128.post at talk.nabble.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> Dave,
>
> The idea of "hand tight" can lead to much discussion of just what is hand
> tight? With an nod to jimtracyjohnston and testosterone I suggest just
> "hand
> tight" leaves way to much variance for comfort.
> This is why I decided on the loos gauge to give me at least a base line for
> reliable rig tuning. I've worked with my hands since I've been a child and
> I
> can easily get 2-3 times what I have now for wire tension by using my hands
> only on the turn buckles. 240 lbs on the side stays is approx. 11% of the
> wires breaking strength which is lower than Roger Ps' suggested settings
> for
> his boat. I have read several articles on rig tuning and some go as high as
> 15% of break point. The baby stays at 120 are half that. Remember that all
> the stays are at an angle to the mast and 120 lbs wire tension is not 120
> lbs downward force some of that force is also pulling sideways as well.
> This
> applies to the side stays as well the load is applied after the spreaders
> change the wires' angle to the mast top.
>
> John Shulick
>
>
> David Culp-3 wrote:
> >
> > John:
> > I have a Loos gauge that I use to balance the rig as well. I think you
> > have
> > your rig too tight based on the numbers you quoted. In fact, I don't pay
> > much attention to the numbers I get on a particular shroud except as a
> > comparison to their opposite counterpart.
> >
> > Stan has advised that the factory recommendation is "hand tight" on the
> > shrouds. I would have to look at the Loos instruction pamplet again but
> I
> > believe that the recommendation from Loos is that the lee shrouds should
> > be
> > at "zero" tension when the boat is healed over at its max angle. Let's
> > call
> > "zero" as being slack and anything less then that being "loose". After
> > raising the mast, I go out and sail the rig a few times watching the
> > shrouds. At max heal angle with all sails hoisted, I just begin to see a
> > little looseness, just slightly beyond slack so that I can see it. I
> > can't
> > get there with merely hand tight usually. Don't tell Stan, but I hold
> the
> > top of the turnbuckle with a small wrench and give it about 1/2 or a full
> > turn tighter with my hand to get it where I want it. Stan's hands maybe
> > stronger then mine is how I rationalize it.
> >
> > Anyway, my rig is still basically "hand tight" but meets the Loos
> > philosophy
> > of not going too loose and mast pumping. My numbers are a lot less then
> > yours. Who knows what kind of a rig Loos based their numbers on?
> > Personally, I would not use their recommendations unless I had a reason
> > and a keel-stepped mast and then I would loosen it every time I berthed
> > the
> > boat. I have already observed first hand what an over-tightened rig can
> > do
> > to a cabin-stepped mast. Maybe your top is OK now, but what about the
> > chain-plates that you can't see? I think Loos is good for racers and
> > anyone else demanding consistent, peak performance and willing to pay for
> > the consequences. I'm not sure that our boat qualifies as a "racer"
> > though
> > I do pretty well against all the comparable ones on my lake even at hand
> > tight.
> >
> > I don't remember my Loos numbers but I think I am less then half of what
> > you
> > are at, maybe 180 at most. I'll check them if you are interested in
> > knowing.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:30:02 EDT
> > From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
> > elimination of compressi...
> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > Message-ID: <c4f.468f947f.3756916a at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >
> > Having no experience with the loos gauge puts me at a disadvantage. I can
> > tell you that my method of testing is done by touch. My stays are taught,
> > but not tight. I test each of them until I think they are all about the
> > same,
> > being careful not to over tighten. I start with each turn buckle at the
> > same point and then I and another person count rotations making sure
> they
> > are
> > the same. I repeat this with each one. My leeward stays are always loose
> > when the sails are filled. That's the way they are supposed to be.
> > Roger was a wonderful resource on this list, but please keep in mind that
> > he is an engineer. My experience with engineers, including Roger, is that
> > they have an extreme tendency to over think things and make them much
> > more
> > difficult than they need be.
> > I would be concerned about the crack that has widened. The crack tells me
> > that at one time the stays were to tight otherwise the crack never would
> > have appeared. Keep in mind the geometry of the deck and hull and how
> > they
> > all
> > work together.
> > Good luck and I'm envious that you are out sailing and I'm waiting for
> > paint to dry.
> >
> > Rummy
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 6/2/2009 9:57:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
> >
> >
> > Rummy,
> >
> > Glad to see you have a lake with water and a shinny new boat to play
> with
> > (nice color) hope the weather cooperates.
> > The loos gauge applies a transverse tension on the wire being tested.
> The
> > wire is pulled with a set amount of force and the amount of deflection
> is
> > measured on a scale which translates to lbs of force. I take the
> accuracy
> > of
> > those numbers with a teaspoon of salt but to obtain the same number on
> > all
> > four baby stays and the 2 side stays indicate balanced tension
> throughout
> > the rigging system. I order to get a consistent reading you must try to
> > measure each wire at the same point on its length as close to the center
> > point as can be safely reached by standing on the deck.
> >
> > John Shulick
> >
> >
> >
> > R22RumRunner wrote:
> >>
> >> John,
> >> Your numbers from the loos gauge mean absolutely nothing to me, but
> your
> >
> >> comment about a 1000 pounds of pressure on the mast support troubles
> me.
> >> Anyone else have any thoughts or experience with the loos gauge?
> >>
> >> Rummy
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 6/1/2009 11:01:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> >> jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> The boat has been in the water for three weeks now and the rigging has
> >> bin
> >> tightened gradually to what I consider normal. In that time the boat
> >> has
> >> been hit by several cold fronts sweeping through the area with winds
> >> of
> >> 30
> >> mph with gusts to 50. I've been out sailing (10 to 15 with gusts)
> > trying
> >> out
> >> my new mainsail from sailcare. and can report no problems aside from
> >> getting
> >> used to some squeaks and groans as the 34 year old cabin adjusts to
> the
> >> new
> >> load. The interior picture shows the arch under a mast load of approx
> >> 1000
> >> lbs.
> >> 120 on the baby stays and 240 on the side stays as measured on the
> loos
> >> gage.
> >>
> >> John Shulick
> >> http://www.nabble.com/file/p23825735/DSCF0298.jpeg
> >>
> >>
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