[Rhodes22-list] too windy--Now Centeboard Effect

Wed Jun 24 11:08:15 EDT 2009

Ben,

The only time I can remember measuring performance into the wind I had the
sheets run across the cabintop.  12 knot wind, boom & board down, full main,
traveler centered, Genoa reefed to the inside shroud, tiller locked, choppy
water.  It's in the archives but I think I was going about 3.5 knots, which
was fast for me on a close reach with that much wind--probably because the
boat was sailing itself.  I measured 45 degrees into the wind which leads me
to believe that an experienced sailor could get upwards to 40 degrees on a
close haul in the right conditions.

I normally have the Genoa sheets ran outside the shrouds but I mostly sail
on a close reach and I'd probably get faster performance with the sheets ran
across the deck in between the shrouds.  Unless I'm on a beam reach or more
off the wind, it's rare that the full 175 decksweeper seems to add much
speed.

Switching the sheets to different leads is easy on the windward side with
the poptop up.  I haven't figured out how to comfortably do it yet with the
poptop down unless I pull in all the sails.

Lee

benonvelvetelvis wrote:
> 
> <<Makes me wonder.  Can you get closer to the wind with the Genoa reefed
> so
> its clew touches the outside shroud, or closer with the full Genoa pulled
> all the way back so its middle touches the outside shroud?  They both
> would
> have the same angle of attack up until they reached the shroud.>>
> 
> Furl it a bit, and bring your sheets inside the outer shrouds.  You
> probably
> have cleats on the side of the cabin trunk to run them through.  This will
> let you pull it in further and point higher.  I think some have sheeted it
> far enough to cleat on the top of the cabin, but I don't think I've taken
> it
> that far.
> 
> Ben
> R22 Velvet Elvis
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Leland
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 14:36
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] too windy--Now Centeboard Effect
> 
> 
> Chris,
> 
> I assumed I couldn't get that close upwind with the full Genoa but I've
> never actually measured it with the board down.
> 
> Makes me wonder.  Can you get closer to the wind with the Genoa reefed so
> its clew touches the outside shroud, or closer with the full Genoa pulled
> all the way back so its middle touches the outside shroud?  They both
> would
> have the same angle of attack up until they reached the shroud.
> 
> Reference your comment about all the variables involved in sailing, I
> developed a spreadsheet so I could log my speed in different conditions. 
> The biggest problems were that there were too many conditions, my
> description of the conditions each time wasn't exactly consistent, and any
> small inconsistency resulted in a different speed.  Still can't tell the
> effect of chop and current.  You would think that the bigger the chop the
> slower you would go into it, but chop is often caused when the waves and
> current are going in opposite directions.  If the waves and current are
> going in the same direction, then they're both fighting you even though
> there may not be any chop at all.
> 
> I tell people I like golf and sailing because they both take place in
> beautiful outdoor environments, but the addiction is because they're both
> so
> impossibly challenging.
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> 
> cowie wrote:
>> 
>> Lee:
>> 
>> I hope to get out sailing this Friday and Saturday.  I found a number of
>> discusions from the group on close haul sailing and what angle is
>> reasonable to be able to point in to the wind.  lots of variables, wind
>> speed, chop, genoa sheet location, sail size, centerboard position
>> etc....
> 
>> I experimented a bit tacking back and forth in about 8kts of wind with
>> all
>> sail up and sheets outside the stays and I seemed to get about 100
>> degrees
>> tack to tack or 50 degrees off the wind.  Plan to test this some more
>> adjusting all the variables.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Leland wrote:
>>> 
>>> Chris,
>>> 
>>> So far this season has been too wet & windy for many good sailing days,
>>> but it doesn't sound like that's stopped you too much.  I should have
>>> knocked on wood when I said there are a lot of days with little wind
>>> around here in the summer.  Yesterday evening the wind prediction
>>> dropped
>>> from 16 mph winds to 9 to 11, which is just perfect for me.  When I
>>> started out the actual wind was only 4 knots and immediately dropped to
>>> about 2 knots for over an hour.  It eventually picked up to 6 knots
>>> about
>>> the time I had to go in.
>>> 
>>> Per Stan's sailing tutorial, you need the centerboard down in light wind
>>> more than heavy, if you want to make any progress into the wind.  I
>>> never
>>> actually measured the effect of the centerboard but it seemed like it
>>> helped about 10 degrees and at worst caused a half knot decrease in
>>> speed
>>> due to drag.
>>> 
>>> With little current and no chop at 1.2 knots I raised the centerboard
>>> and
>>> the boat came off the wind exactly 20 degrees and sped up to 2.2 knots. 
>>> I was surprised.  Later I had the board down at 2.4 knots and again I
>>> lost 20 degrees and sped up 1 knot when I raised the board.  I still
>>> assume that performance would be less affected at higher speeds, but I
>>> wasn't expecting the signficant difference caused by the board.  Really
>>> makes you think about the drag caused by keels.  Even if you're racing
>>> an
>>> experienced J-22 skipper, in light winds you might have a noticeable
>>> advantage against her fixed keel.
>>> 
>>> Lee
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> cowie wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Lee:
>>>> 
>>>> I did go down to the boat on Saturday for a couple of hours but did not
>>>> venture out into the bay.  I finaly figured out how to remove the
>>>> clevis
>>>> pin form the furling headsail in order to tighten up the forward stay. 
>>>> I also noticed the turnbuckle didn't have any pins so I added to a
>>>> piece
>>>> of wire to prevent it from opening up.  I also added pins to all the
>>>> other stays to keep them in place.
>>>> 
>>>> So far I have been just day sailing pretty much like you, heading in
>>>> whatever direction provides the best day sail.  With as much wind as we
>>>> have had so far this season I have had fun trying all different sail
>>>> combinations.  With the wind blowing above 15 kts I typicaly head up
>>>> wind as much as possible, lower the boom and bring the jib sheets
>>>> inside
>>>> the spreaders, then turn around and come back.  I am hoping to take an
>>>> overnight trip soon perhaps to St. Michaels.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Leland wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Chris,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Saturday was too wet and Sunday was consumed with Father's Day stuff. 
>>>>> Sunday was too windy for my enjoyment but I wanted to go out just for
>>>>> the high-wind experience.  I think the forecast was around 20 mph, but
>>>>> the chop and gusts probably made it more work than fun.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As a daysailor, my only destination is the marina at the end of the
>>>>> sailing day.  If the winds are less than 5 knots, my tacks are usually
>>>>> on close reaches out and back just to keep moving.  Sometimes I'll
>>>>> motor downwind at the end of the day just to get back quickly.  For
>>>>> winds between 5-10 knots I usually go wherever I like since it's easy
>>>>> to get back home.  Beyond 10 knots I typically go into the wind as
>>>>> much
>>>>> as possible.  Boom and board down with sheets run inside the shrouds. 
>>>>> It's a much smoother sail heading into the chop and it's an easy
>>>>> return
>>>>> home on a run or broad reach when you have a strong wind.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Did you go out over the weekend or decide it wasn't worth it? 
>>>>> Saturday
>>>>> evening we thought we saw a Rhodes between the Severn and bay bridge
>>>>> on
>>>>> the western shore side.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lee
>>>>> 1986 Rhodes22  At Ease
>>>>> Kent Island, MD
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> cowie wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Did anyone sail on the chesapeake bay this weekend?  Too many storms
>>>>>> and wind for me.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
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