[Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies

Michael D. Weisner mweisner at ebsmed.com
Wed Nov 4 21:02:27 EST 2009 

Art,

We are talking about safety at sea and lives are at stake.  It has been 
shown that nothing is foolproof or idiot-proof and that water ballast 
systems are very easy to operate in ideal conditions.  When the going gets 
rough, the last thing I would want to fool with is trying to fill the 
ballast tank.  That's why we have furling systems, so that it is easier to 
sail safely.

The problems with water ballast in salt water environments are even worse! 
Not only is there corrosive salt in the ballast but there is plenty of 
sealife as well (yuck!)

BTW, there have been many interesting disasters using water ballast 
including ferries, an NCL cruise ship a few years ago and one of the most 
famous, the Eastland, a large pleasure cruiser that became unstable while 
still moored to the dock and rolled over.

Solid ballast is something that you can count on, all of the time.  Keep the 
water under the keel.

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:39 PM
> Mike,
>
> Agreed,  the ballast needs to be either full or empty.  Macgregor has a 
> foolproof test, even for dumbies.  Feel at the top of the ballast tank for 
> the top of the water fill.  Difficult to screw that one up...
>
> Art
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
>>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 6:00 PM
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>>
>>Lee,
>>
>>Yep, 1400 lbs of ballast is 1400 lbs of ballast except when it moves.  The
>>major problem with water is that it "sloshes", for lack of a better word 
>>and
>>lead or cement do not (at least at normal temps.)  Some of the mishaps 
>>with
>>cruise ships and freighters were due to movement of cargo or water ballast
>>as the vessel rolled (heeling in sailboats.)  If the ballast compartment 
>>is
>>not completely full, disaster can strike.
>>
>>Mike
>>s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>Nissequogue River, NY
>>
>>From: "KUHN, LELAND" Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:08 PM
>>> Rick,
>>>
>>> 1,400 pounds (or l,l50 pounds)
>>>
>>> http://www.macgregor26.com/water_ballast/water_ballast.htm
>>>
>>> is the same weight no matter if it's lead or water.  The only real
>>> difference is that lead takes up eleven times less space than water.
>>> Our Rhodes sailboats have 700 pounds of ballast.  The lower the weight
>>> the more the righting capability but weight is weight no matter if it's
>>> water or lead.  Water ballast works, it just takes up eleven times more
>>> space than lead.
>>>
>>> I welcome disagreement from the physicists and engineers out there.
>>>
>>> Lee
>>> 1986 Rhodes22  At Ease
>>> Kent Island, MD
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Arthur H.
>>> Czerwonky
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:28 PM
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>>>
>>> Rick,
>>>
>>> Consider that the water adds 1400# to the ballast, other stability
>>> questions not considered.  Validating the stability issue would be easy
>>> - with mast and sail and ballast in place, pull the mast toward the
>>> water and determine at what point the tension on the mast line zeroes
>>> out.  If the tension remains, the boat will have a natural positive
>>> righting moment.
>>>
>>> This does not allow for the dumbie who, like others before, operate the
>>> boat improperly or who cannot read the directions.
>>>
>>> Macgregor will sell the new spreader assembly so that the mast can have
>>> the stays properly aligned, GB might obtain for free as a professional
>>> courtesy fm MacG.
>>>
>>> Make sense?
>>>
>>> Art
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>>>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 3:06 PM
>>>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>>>>
>>>>Art,
>>>>
>>>>An IMF mast would probably cause a water ballast MacGregor to turtle.
>>>>
>>>>Please explain: "Stan no longer has new IMF capability."
>>>>
>>>>Rick
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky
>>> <czerwonky at earthlink.net
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder who could know - a typical Catalina owner will be the best
>>> judge.
>>>>>  BTW, no secret that we can be helpful in promoting this if we have
>>> posted
>>>>> pictures and info.  I have toyed seriously with putting the IMF on a
>>>>> MacGregor to test for stability.  Anyone who has had the thrill of
>>> raising a
>>>>> MacGregor mainsail from their awkward deck station would understand
>>> the
>>>>> value in this.  There are alot of Macgregor owners who would thirst
>>> at this
>>>>> prospect - talk about a market for the IMF.  I mention this knowing
>>> that
>>>>> Tootle certified that Stan no longer has new IMF capability.
>>> Hopefully this
>>>>> is not true.
>>>>>
>>>>> Art
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>>>> >Sent: Nov 4, 2009 2:35 PM
>>>>> >To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Stan,
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Doesn't sound any different than companies that supe up sports cars.
>>> How
>>>>> >much for the suped up Catalina?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Rick
>>>>> >
>>>>> >On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, stan <stan at rhodes22.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we
>>> went
>>>>> into
>>>>> >> recycling Rhodes
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects
>>> who
>>>>> want
>>>>> >> a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes
>>> 27
>>>>> >> projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we
>>> are
>>>>> going to
>>>>> >> try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo
>>> keel/cb,
>>>>> >> electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and
>>>>> upgraded.
>>>>> >>    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> ss
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> __________________________________________________
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>>
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