[Rhodes22-list] Sailing Upwind
Mary Lou Troy
mtroy at atlanticbb.net
Thu Nov 4 20:21:52 EDT 2010
Nice looking boats - both of them!
ML
At 07:49 PM 11/4/2010, you wrote:
>Speaking of models, here's Blue Heron and her chick.
>
>On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 3:24 PM, Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>wrote:
>
> > Ben,
> >
> > I mostly fly electric RC planes now, although I have an electric RC
> > sailboat. It used to be fun to sail it behind my R22 when the seas were
> > very calm.
> >
> > One of our club Grummanites has a very large carrier that he "sails" on
> > Lake
> > Ronkonkoma (on LI), I have done touch and goes on the deck with a small
> > ducted fan "jet" for some great photos. Not enough room for landing (no
> > arrester wire either) or taking off for these underpowered planes. If I
> > can
> > find the photos I will post to the list (real photos, need to scan them in
> > someday). I only wish that we had videos but we were too far ahead of the
> > technology (before battery powered camcorders).
> >
> >
> > Mike
> > s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> > Nissequogue River, NY
> >
> > From: "BenCittadino" Thursday, November 04, 2010 2:58 PM
> > >
> > > MIke;
> > >
> > > I love that model. How did you come across it? Very impressive. Are you a
> > > modeler?
> > >
> > > BenC
> > >
> > > R22MikeW wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Ben,
> > >>
> > >> Most life lines are too low anyway to keep a 6' adult on board.
> > >>
> > >> Now, how about increasing the width of the walkway to accommodate a
> > >> walker
> > >> ...
> > >>
> > >> Mike
> > >> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> > >> Nissequogue River, NY
> > >>
> > >> From: "BenCittadino" Thursday, November 04, 2010 2:12 PM
> > >>>
> > >>> Rummy & Dave;
> > >>>
> > >>> I remember being taught in the USN to NEVER sit upon, lean against, or
> > >>> even
> > >>> touch the life line railings aboard ship. The only time anyone should
> > >>> touch
> > >>> them is when maintaining or repairing them. The idea is they are only
> > >>> there
> > >>> as a last resort and if you have to grab them you shouldn't be out
> > there
> > >>> to
> > >>> begin with.
> > >>>
> > >>> I would never tell anyone not to have them because if they keep you
> > from
> > >>> going overboard only once in twenty years they can be worth the money,
> > >>> but
> > >>> remember they are not built for routine daily stress and strain, or
> > >>> reliance. You can look at them, but don't touch them 'till you really
> > >>> need
> > >>> them.
> > >>>
> > >>> BenC
> > >>> s/v susan kay ('93 recycled '08) (no railings)
> > >>>
> > >>> R22RumRunner wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Dave,
> > >>>> Unless you have small children, I see no need for the railings. Just
> > my
> > >>>> 2
> > >>>> cents worth. I like to keep things both simple and clean.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Rummy
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In a message dated 11/4/2010 1:01:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > >>>> rhodes22dave at gmail.com writes:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Rummy, I think the railings are okay. They make great hangers for
> > the
> > >>>> fenders at the dock. [?]
> > >>>> I could do without them, but my wife likes them. They are handy to
> > >>>> lean
> > >>>> against a little, for balance, when cleaning or doing various chores
> > >>>> about
> > >>>> the boat.
> > >>>> When under sail, actually they don't get in the way or interfere with
> > >>>> the
> > >>>> 175. They virtually touch the outer stays, and the sail could not go
> > >>>> in
> > >>>> further anyway.
> > >>>> The one inconvenience is that the genoa sheet can, in the process of
> > >>>> tacking, get wedged in between the stay and the rail, requiring me to
> > >>>> go
> > >>>> forward and free it, or to jiggle the line and try to fool with it
> > >>>> remotely.
> > >>>> However, I would be interested in the views of others that have
> > rails.
> > >>>> I
> > >>>> was planning to order them on my new R22, but I could be persuaded
> > >>>> either
> > >>>> way, if the Commandant--my wife--could be persuaded (an unlikely
> > >>>> event).
> > >>>> Dave
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 7:17 AM, <R22RumRunner at aol.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Dave,
> > >>>>> The fact that you have the side railings makes your boat a
> > completely
> > >>>>> different animal. I have never sailed on one with the railings, but
> > I
> > >>>>> can
> > >>>>> imagine the problems you will encounter with them. You might ask for
> > >>>> advice
> > >>>>> from
> > >>>>> someone who has the railings. Personally, I don't like them on a 22
> > >>>>> foot
> > >>>>> sailboat. In fact, I don't even like them on a larger boat, but I
> > >>>>> understand
> > >>>>> why they might be needed. Your inability to make the 175 work for
> > >>>>> you
> > >>>>> is
> > >>>>> directly related to the railings. You might want to consider
> > >>>>> replacing
> > >>>>> your
> > >>>>> furling drum with one that allows a complete sail change on the
> > >>>>> fly,
> > >>>>> unlike
> > >>>>> the GB furler.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Rummy.......still waiting for the shuttle to go up.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> In a message dated 11/3/2010 12:55:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > >>>>> rhodes22dave at gmail.com writes:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Lee, thanks for your comments. I may give you a call, as I will
> > >>>>> have
> > >>>> to
> > >>>>> decide which sail to put on my R22 this time, as compared to the 175
> > >>>>> I
> > >>>>> have
> > >>>>> been using. Last weekend the wind was mild but steady--about 5
> > mph.
> > >>>>> Using
> > >>>>> the full 175 was very pleasant. But in gusty or changeable winds
> > >>>>> (our
> > >>>>> most
> > >>>>> common lake condition), and where sailing close hauled is
> > important,
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>> 175
> > >>>>> is simply too much sail area too far forward, and even when largely
> > >>>>> furled,
> > >>>>> the boat doesn't point well--worse than all the other boats that I
> > >>>>> see.
> > >>>>> Unless the genoa is furled way in, I don't see how I could lead the
> > >>>> sheets
> > >>>>> through the inner guides on the deck, inside the shrouds. I was
> > >>>> surprised
> > >>>>> that you mentioned that the smaller genoa would be closer to the
> > >>>>> deck.
> > >>>> I
> > >>>>> haven't seen one, but I assumed that the 130/140/150 sizes would
> > >>>>> simply
> > >>>> be
> > >>>>> made in their smaller sizes by shortening or raising the foot of
> > the
> > >>>> sail.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I also use my full 175 less than 20% of the time, and when I am on
> > a
> > >>>> reach
> > >>>>> in mild weather conditions, it is a very nice sail. So if you can
> > >>>>> keep
> > >>>> a
> > >>>>> decent sail shape and still furl it way in for other conditions and
> > >>>>> re-route
> > >>>>> the sheets to one of the inner paths, then it's probably a good
> > >>>>> multi-purpose compromise for a sail. 80% of the time, I have the
> > >>>>> genoa
> > >>>>> furled in to greater or lesser degrees, and I am telling myself
> > that
> > >>>> next
> > >>>>> time I am going to have a smaller sail.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I also have the steel side rails, which are very convenient, but
> > the
> > >>>>> sheets
> > >>>>> do often catch between the rails and the stays on tacking, and I
> > >>>>> have
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>> go
> > >>>>> forward and free them up. This is avoided by furling in
> > >>>>> substantially
> > >>>>> just
> > >>>>> before tacking, and then letting the sail back out, but a smaller
> > >>>>> sail
> > >>>>> would
> > >>>>> be just that much more convenient.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Dave
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 2:33 PM, KUHN, LELAND <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > Dave,
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > "I have never
> > >>>>> > liked the 175 genoa very much because I can't sail nearly as
> > close
> > >>>>> > to
> > >>>>> > the
> > >>>>> > wind as any of hundreds of other sailboats on our lake."
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > I don't think a smaller Genoa will help you sail closer to the
> > >>>>> > wind
> > >>>>> as
> > >>>>> > much as re-routing your sheets. You still won't be able to pull
> > >>>>> > your
> > >>>>> > jib or smaller Genoa closer to the center of your boat if your
> > >>>>> > sheets
> > >>>>> > are run outside of the outer shroud.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > As for sail shape, you can pull a 175% Genoa just as tight as a
> > >>>> smaller
> > >>>>> > Genoa. A smaller Genoa won't have as much rolled-up bulk around
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>> > furler and the sail will be closer to the deck, which will
> > >>>>> > probably
> > >>>>> > improve performance slightly if you're on a close reach.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > The primary reason I would opt for a smaller Genoa is because I
> > >>>>> > use
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>> > full 175% sail less than 20% of the time. When I do use the full
> > >>>> 175% I
> > >>>>> > swear I'll never go with anything smaller.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Feel free to give me a call if you'd like to discuss upwind
> > >>>> performance.
> > >>>>> > 202.476.5369
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Good luck!
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Lee
> > >>>>> > 1986 Rhodes22 AT EASE
> > >>>>> > Kent Island, MD
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >>>>> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
> > >>>>> > Rhodes22Dave
> > >>>>> > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 11:51 PM
> > >>>>> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > >>>>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Sailing Upwind
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Interesting. I will try this. I also thought that re-routing the
> > >>>> genoa
> > >>>>> > sheets inside the shrouds would just get the sail caught. I
> > have
> > >>>> never
> > >>>>> > liked the 175 genoa very much because I can't sail nearly as
> > close
> > >>>>> > to
> > >>>>> > the
> > >>>>> > wind as any of hundreds of other sailboats on our lake. I can do
> > >>>>> > a
> > >>>>> > little
> > >>>>> > better by furling in the genoa to a much smaller exposed sail
> > >>>> area--but
> > >>>>> > at a
> > >>>>> > cost of sail shape with all the furling. I may get a second R22
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>> am
> > >>>>> > thinking of getting a smaller genoa--or adding the self-tending
> > >>>>> > jib.
> > >>>>> > But
> > >>>>> > what you suggest might be a solution, at least for long tacks.
> > >>>>> > Dave
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Ben Cittadino wrote:
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > I had two days in a row on Sandy Hook Bay in NJ this weekend,
> > >>>>> > > and
> > >>>>> > > I
> > >>>>> > want
> > >>>>> > > to report that I had a pleasing experience by "finally"
> > >>>>> re-routing
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>> > > Jib (175 Genny) sheets inside the outer shrouds to try for
> > >>>>> > > better
> > >>>>> > upwind
> > >>>>> > > sailing. I have to say that I didn't expect much difference,
> > but
> > >>>>> I
> > >>>> was
> > >>>>> > > delighted to get inside 45 degrees at last. I obviously didn't
> > >>>>> let
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>> > > Genny out to the full 175, but at 100 we flew along and I felt
> > >>>>> > > like
> > >>>> I
> > >>>>> > > could make real headway upwind. I had delayed trying the new
> > >>>>> route
> > >>>> for
> > >>>>> > > the sheets because I thought the sail would get all hung up in
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>> > > shrouds, but it's become no big deal. Try it, you'll like it.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > BenCittadino
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > S/V Susan Kay ('93 recycled '08)
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > --
> > >>>>> > View this message in context:
> > >>>>> > http://old.nabble.com/Sailing-Upwind-tp29517214p30044777.html
> > >>>>> > Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> > >>>>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
> > >>>> archives
> > >>>>> > go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>> > __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> > >>>>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
> > >>>> archives
> > >>>>> go
> > >>>>> > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>> > __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> > >>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
> > >>>>> archives
> > >>>> go
> > >>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> > >>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
> > >>>>> archives
> > >>>>> go
> > >>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> -------------- next part --------------
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> > >>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
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> > >>>>
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> > >>>>
> > >>>> __________________________________________________
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> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> View this message in context:
> > >>> http://old.nabble.com/Sailing-Upwind-tp29517214p30134738.html
> > >>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > >>>
> > >>> __________________________________________________
> > >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> > >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> > >>>
> > >>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
> > >>> go
> > >>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>> __________________________________________________
> > >>
> > >> __________________________________________________
> > >> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
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> > >>
> > >> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
> > go
> > >> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >> __________________________________________________
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> > > http://old.nabble.com/Sailing-Upwind-tp29517214p30135129.html
> > > Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> > > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> > >
> > > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> > > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________________________
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
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> >
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