[Rhodes22-list] gas tank in laz

Thu Nov 18 16:13:31 EST 2010

First, Ben C., until national healthcare is a reality, we can still choose 
to endanger ourselves, so they are free to do as they please.

Next, Charles, is the question of "What constitutes adequate ventilation?" 
The 1" - 2" opening between the laz and the underseat area only amounts to 
about 1/4 sq ft total, not nearly enough to qualify as natural ventilation 
of a 10-15 cu ft space.  In addition, the space communicates with the cabin 
and bilge spaces, a definite no-no for combustible vapors.

As far as sources of ignition are concerned, there are many.  First, most of 
us have electrical systems with at the very least the required stern lamp in 
the laz, not to mention depth sounders, solar powered fans, electric start 
engines, alternators and power lifts.  A short circuit in any of these 
electrical devices or wiring that passes through the laz could become a 
source of ignition.  Just because you are not using your electrical system 
does not mean it should not be evaluated, since a new skipper (or spouse) 
may hook up a battery in the future.  BTW, USCG requires working navigation 
lights during hours of darkness so you should have functional lights just in 
case you get caught out late.

The other sources of ignition typically involve fire, such as smokes, 
lighters (don't forget about grill lighters stored in the laz) or static 
discharges.  Since fiberglass is a good quality insulator, it is entirely 
possible to build up a charge on the hull as the air passes around the 
Dacron sails.  While I have never heard of someone getting a shock in this 
matter, one cannot rule it out as a source of electrostatic ignition.

Of course, every discussion of static electricity discharges on the water 
must include lightning.  Without starting a discussion on grounding the 
mast, just assume that ungrounded rigging was exposed to the field via a 
near strike.  A potential source of discharge could be from the back stays 
through the laz to the water filled cockpit drain hose.  If you are lucky, 
you would be home during the storm.  Better to be safe than lucky.

This all brings to mind a different question.  What is the benefit of 
placing the fuel tank in the laz?  No, you cannot tell me the laz provides 
security - it's the first place the crooks break into before attempting the 
pop-top / cabin door.  If they are after fuel, I'd rather they take it and 
leave the rest of the boat alone.

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Charles Nieman" Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:27 PM
>
> All you "old timers" may be aware of the discussion in times past, and I 
> hope we have provided the desired entertainment for the day, and I 
> appreciate the education of what some think is a better place to store the 
> tank.
>
> but I must agree with Rummy (as dangerous as that may seem). Where is the 
> source for the spark?
>
> I dry sail my boat, day sail only, have no battery, no electrical devices 
> and leave the gas tank in the laz when I am not sailing, rather than take 
> it home or leave it in plan view under the seat to be stolen. When I do go 
> out, I open the laz to squeeze the fuel priming bulb, thus allowing any 
> built up fumes to escape (and I have never smelled these fumes, so I 
> suspect Rummy has a point about the ventilation). During long periods of 
> not sailing (the cold of late Nov through early Feb, or heat early July 
> through late August) I usually store in my garage. I fully believe in 
> safety and am going to take all of this into deep thought; but please tell 
> where is the spark coming from, where is the fume build up and why is this 
> dangerous?
>
> C
>
>> From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
>> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:56:07 -0500
>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] gas tank in laz
>>
>> Ben,
>> As all the old timers know, this is an old, rehashed topic that Benny
>> brought up just to get the list talking again. I certainly understand 
>> everyone's
>> concerns, but tell me, where's the source of ignition in the lazz? I 
>> still
>> maintain that there is plenty of ventilation, even after looking at the 
>> CC
>> regulations.
>>
>> Rummy
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 11/18/2010 2:50:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> bencittadino at gmail.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Rummy and Charles and Whoever;
>>
>> I am very apart from Mike politically. However, let me say this as gently
>> as
>> I can. GET THOSE FREAKING GAS CANS OUT OF THE LAZARETTE THIS VERY
>> MINUTE!!!!
>> Are you suicidal? Are you just so stubborn that you are willing to die
>> rather than be reasonable? Whether the laz is "air tight" or "water 
>> tight"
>> means nothing. It is incredibly dangerous to store gasoline in that small
>> enclosed space. Get it the heck out of there. You can only play "russian
>> roulette" for so long before you get a bullet in the head.
>>
>> And, yes, the parents of that little girl who exploited her by letting 
>> her
>> sail around the world belong in jail, too!
>>
>> your devoted colleague,
>>
>> BenC
>>
>> Ben Schultz wrote:
>> >
>> > Right on. Mission accomplished. When I get bored again, I'll have to
>> go
>> > back a decade and find another topic that used to get us fired up!
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Michael D.
>> > Weisner
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 10:47
>> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] gas tank in laz
>> >
>> > Hey Rummy,
>> >
>> > Ben was bored so he threw a lit match into a tank of gas. Charles took
>> > the
>> > bait. Da list responds. You ... nevermind. Ben, be careful what you
>> > wish
>> > for.
>> >
>> > I prefer to live to sail another day. I have even donned a life vest in
>> > rough seas, lately. I must be growing up or something. It is truly a
>> > terrible thing, this getting older business.
>> >
>> > Sail safe and make sure that your passengers are of a like mind. Their
>> > lives are in your hands.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> > s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>> > Nissequogue River, NY
>> >
>> > From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com> Thursday, November 18, 2010 11:35 AM
>> >> Mike,
>> >> And how long have you been a part of this list? Do you really expect 
>> >> me
>> >> to
>> >> live my other people's rules? Ain't happening. I'm smarter than the
>> rest
>> >> of
>> >> the planet. Is it noon yet? Anywhere?
>> >>
>> >> Rummy
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In a message dated 11/18/2010 11:26:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> >> mweisner at ebsmed.com writes:
>> >>
>> >> Rummy,
>> >>
>> >> Your mileage not withstanding, your practice constitutes an unsafe
>> >> condition. Please review the USCG site
>> >>
>> >
>> http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/boatbuilder_s_handbook/vent_partg.asp
>> > x
>> >> with particular attention to the
>> >> following portion:
>> >> Portable Fuel Tanks
>> >> Compartments used to store vented portable fuel tanks or containers 
>> >> are
>> >> required to be equipped with natural ventilation.
>> >>
>> >> Cockpit seat lockers in auxiliary sailboats are often used as fuel 
>> >> tank
>> >> compartments for portable outboard motor fuel tanks. If this fuel tank
>> >> vents
>> >> into the locker, then natural ventilation of this locker is required.
>> >>
>> >> Since fuel vapors seek the lowest point of any compartment, gasoline
>> >> vapors should be considered when designing and constructing a
>> >> compartment
>> >
>> >> that
>> >> will contain a fuel tank or container that vents into a compartment.
>> Any
>> >> openings in or near the bottom of the compartment could permit
>> explosive
>> >> vapors to flow into the bilge of the boat where an ignition source
>> might
>> >> ignite
>> >> the vapors.
>> >>
>> >> The "natural ventilation" must consist of:
>> >>
>> >> (1) supply opening(s) or duct(s) from the atmosphere or from a
>> >> ventilated compartment or from a compartment that is ventilated
>> >> to the atmosphere;
>> >> and
>> >>
>> >> (2) exhaust opening(s) into another ventilated compartment or exhaust
>> >> duct(s) to the atmosphere.
>> >>
>> >> Each supply opening must be located on the exterior surface of the
>> boat:
>> >> "Open to the atmosphere" means a compartment that has at least 15
>> square
>> >> inches of open area directly exposed to the atmosphere for each cubic
>> >> foot
>> >> of net compartment volume. The underseat space meets this requirement
>> >> while
>> >> the laz space has insufficient ventilation and connects with the cabin
>> >> interior and bilge through wiring channels. These ventilation
>> >> requirements
>> >> also apply to batteries that emit hydrogen gas during charging (solar
>> or
>> >> otherwise) in confined spaces.
>> >> For those who are interested, the site also provides links to pdfs of
>> >> the
>> >> Boatbuilder's Handbook for download.
>> >>
>> >> A simpler version entitled "Safety Standards for Backyard Boat
>> Builders"
>> >> which I have found very useful over the years is available at:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/education_safety/safety/boatwater/backyardboatb
>> >> uilders.pdf
>> >>
>> >> Please err on the side of safety. Don't play around with lives. Many
>> >> of
>> >> these rules were established after an avoidable accident.
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>> >> Nissequogue River, NY
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com> Thursday, November 18, 2010 10:15 AM
>> >>> Charles,
>> >>> Relax. I kept my fuel tank in the lazzerette for almost twenty years.
>> I
>> >>> moved it only after I installed the electric motor lift which places
>> an
>> >>> electric motor (sparks) in the lazz. The hatch cover for the lazz is
>> >> not air
>> >>> tight and if you look under both seats you will see large openings
>> >> which
>> >>> provide adequate ventilation. People on the list were worried that I
>> >> was going to
>> >>> blow myself up, but as you can see, I'm still intact. I used to
>> drink
>> >> like
>> >>> crazy and smoked cigars and cigarettes.......all at the same time and
>> >>> never had a problem with gas fumes.
>> >>>
>> >>> Rummy
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> In a message dated 11/18/2010 9:08:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> >>> blue66corvette at hotmail.com writes:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I sail in teh suburbs of Dallas, Texas ..... I think I am the only
>> >> Rhodie
>> >>> in these parts so you probably won't even hear the explosion......I
>> >> do't
>> >>> have propane on the boat, I am guessing that would be for a stove? I
>> >> don't
>> >>> have one of those either.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks for the education, I will gfive some thought to moving the
>> >>> tank.
>> >>>
>> >>> Charles
>> >>> s/v Blue Feather
>> >>> 84 R 22 ... recycled 96
>> >>>
>> >>>> From: mweisner at ebsmed.com
>> >>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> >>>> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 08:53:59 -0500
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Reintroduction - Now gas tank in laz
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It depends on how far away from here you sail your Rhodes ...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Basically, fuel vapors that accumulate can be fairly explosive.
>> Since
>> >>> the
>> >>>> laz is not ventilated, it is not a great place to store gasoline. I
>> >> have
>> >>>> always stored a 6 gal tank under the cockpit seat without a problem
>> >>> where at
>> >>>> least the fumes (lighter than air) would not be trapped.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> BTW, where do you store your propane (heavier than air)? Please do
>> >>>> not
>> >>
>> >>>> store it in the cabin.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Where do you sail,again?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mike
>> >>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>> >>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >>>> From: "Charles Nieman" <blue66corvette at hotmail.com>
>> >>>> To: "Rhodes List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 8:42 AM
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Reintroduction
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > I don't know about all that political stuff ..... but what's this
>> >>> about
>> >>>> > keeping your gas tank in tha lazerette????? That is where I have
>> >>> always
>> >>>> > kept mine .... is this a problem????
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Charles
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >> From: benonvelvetelvis at theskinnyonbenny.com
>> >>>> >> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> >>>> >> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 06:40:39 -0600
>> >>>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Reintroduction
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> We are overdue for some angry -- or at least passionate rants.
>> >>> Thoughts
>> >>>> >> on
>> >>>> >> midterm elections? Sarah Palin's book tour? Did dinosaurs really
>> >>> exist?
>> >>>> >> Do you prefer Bicardi to Mount Gay? Isn't anyone at least
>> keeping
>> >>> their
>> >>>> >> gas
>> >>>> >> tank in the lazerette?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Watching and waiting from BR,
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Ben
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> >> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> >>>> >> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Geoff
>> >> Farrell
>> >>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:39
>> >>>> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> >>>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Reintroduction
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Thank God... on both counts.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:28 PM, <R22RumRunner at aol.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > Mike.
>> >>>> >> > Welcome back to the list. A while back we had to have a
>> >> separation
>> >>> of
>> >>>> >> > sailing from politics. The political people left the list and
>> >>> started
>> >>>> >> their
>> >>>> >> > own
>> >>>> >> > social network list. The sailors and most of the drunks are
>> >>>> still
>> >>> here.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Rummy
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > In a message dated 11/16/2010 3:07:58 P.M. Eastern Standard
>> >>>> Time,
>> >>>> >> > michael.4591 at gmail.com writes:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > By way of a reintroduction I am Mike Corley, a loyal Rhodes
>> >> owner
>> >>> since
>> >>>> >> > 1996. I have not been active on the list in several years. It
>> is
>> >>>> >> > definitely a lot quieter now than it used to be. Sort of miss
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> barroom
>> >>>> >> > mentality of the old list.
>> >>>> >> > I have owned two Rhodes, the first was a new 96 model I bought
>> >> from
>> >>>> >> > Stan and then after returning from Europe Stan made me a great
>> >> deal
>> >>> and
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > traded it in on a slightly used and upgraded 99 Rhodes in
>> 2000,
>> >> but
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > is
>> >>>> >> > another story. I like to tell people that I liked the boat so
>> >> much I
>> >>>> >> > bought
>> >>>> >> > it twice. I still take the boat back to GB in Edenton, NC when
>> >>>> it
>> >>> needs
>> >>>> >> > work which is infrequently. Stan and GB is the most honest
>> >> business
>> >>> I
>> >>>> >> > have
>> >>>> >> > ever dealt with and they still do good work!
>> >>>> >> > I just recently retired from the Army after 30 years of
>> service.
>> >> I
>> >>>> >> > retired from Fort Monroe, Va and now live in Smithfield, Va at
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > intersection of the Pagan and James Rivers. I keep my boat at
>> >>>> the
>> >>> Old
>> >>>> >> > Point
>> >>>> >> > Comfort Marina at Ft Monroe in Hampton, Va which is about 22
>> >> miles
>> >>> from
>> >>>> >> > Smithfield. My children are grown now so I primarily
>> singlehand
>> >>> which
>> >>>> >> > is
>> >>>> >> > easy to do in a Rhodes. I have enjoyed sailing the Southern
>> >>> Chesapeake
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > the last four years. Previously I have sailed my Rhodes out
>> of
>> >>> Middle
>> >>>> >> > River
>> >>>> >> > near Baltimore, Newbern, NC on the Neuse river, and Washington
>> >> DC
>> >>> on
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > Potomac River. As all of you will agree, the Rhodes is a great
>> >>> costal
>> >>>> >> and
>> >>>> >> > inland pocket cruiser!
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Mike Corley
>> >>>> >> > S/V Ranger
>> >>>> >> > 99 Rhodes
>> >>>> >> > Hampton Roads, Va
>> >>>> >> > __________________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >>>> >> > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>> >>> archives
>> >>>> >> > go
>> >>>> >> > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>> >> > __________________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > __________________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >>>> >> > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>> >>> archives
>> >>>> >> > go
>> >>>> >> > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>> >> > __________________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>> >>> archives go
>> >>>> >> to
>> >>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>> >>> archives go
>> >>>> >> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > __________________________________________________
>> >>>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >>>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>> >> archives
>> >>> go
>> >>>> > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>> > __________________________________________________
>> >>>>
>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>>>
>> >>>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>> >>>> archives
>> >>> go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>>
>> >>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>> archives
>> >> go
>> >>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>>
>> >>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>> archives
>> >> go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>
>> >> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
>> >> go
>> >> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >>
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>
>> >> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
>> go
>> >> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >
>> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives 
>> > go
>> > to
>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > __________________________________________________
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >
>> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives 
>> > go
>> > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > __________________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>>
>> -- 
>> View this message in context:
>> http://old.nabble.com/Reintroduction-tp30232486p30250532.html
>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>
>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to 
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>
>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go 
>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to 
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go 
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________ 