[Rhodes22-list] Sacrificial Toothpicks

Sat Jun 22 10:54:49 EDT 2013

I feel privileged to be in receipt of a message from the Oracle of Rhodes. ; - ) as well as the elders of Rhodes like Rummy. I cannot argue with your immovable object argument. Something has to give. Through bolting and reinforcing the surrounding area of the cabin top, as we have done, might raise the threshold level for dismasting. Your point is that at some level of (leverage) force through bolting can result in costly damage to the structure. We agree. You also point out that the pivoting hinge would allow the mast to come down in any direction without becoming disconnected from the cabin top or disconnecting with little damage. That's a really good point. By the way, pivoting and single screw attachment is news and I don't think anyone mentioned that detail. Our fixture has three screw/bolt holes. 

In other words, it seems that the design anticipates a high level of risk of rig failure. However, under sail, a prudent sailor has numerous options for managing rig stress including dropping the sails and running to the nearest safe harbor. Inspection of rig tuning avoids surprise rig failure under typical sailing conditions. The one non sailing risk is DIY mast raising without extra helpers. So, we surmised that some of the argument for your design, and objection to through bolting, anticipates more incidence of mast raising mishaps. As you say, with 9 stays versus the typical 6 as on my Abbott 22, a dismasting under sail should be almost impossible for the average day sailor. So, you will be relieved to know that we will replace the bolts with screws and attach a copy of your email to the mast in the event we are someday found under it ; - ). 

Mike Hellyar
Steve Congdon
Bay View, Ohio on Lake Erie
sent from my iPad

On Jun 21, 2013, at 12:27 PM, Stan Spitzer <stan at rhodes22.com> wrote:

> Mike and followers:
> 
> As you can see I stay out of these things, mostly because boats that 
> have passed through other hands have often been altered by other hands 
> that I am not familiar with.  2,000 years ago Rhodies came to their 
> elders when they had a serious question - today they just put tribal 
> elders in an old Rhodes, set it on fire and push it out to sea.  So this 
> is by way of a patriotic service - and a public notice to listen to 
> Rummy since he now is getting very old.
> 
> 1.    The Rhodes mast is supported by 9 stays.   You could lose 6 of the 
> right 9 stays and the mast will not come down. The jib stay on any boat 
> is usually the most likely to fail.  In most boats, that are our size, 
> this means the mast comes down on the skipper, who probably deserves 
> it.  But this does not happen on a Rhodes, even with a deserving 
> skipper, because of the forward lowers.
> 
> 2.    The mast step is a HINGE.  Hinges allow things to move.  So even 
> bolting the hinge step all the way to the keel will not stop a mast, 
> hell bent on coming down, from pivoting in its new, infinitely secured, 
> mast step.   NO stays and it will pivot down. Its in a hinge.
> 
> 3.    OK, you want the mast to stay up in your now bolted-on mast step. 
>   So you do away with your mast step's hinged action by putting two 
> horizontal holes through the mast base and insert two 3/8" bolts instead 
> of the single bolt design that previously allowed the mast to pivot.   
> Now, with your non moveable mast step, and non pivotable mast, you feel 
> secure that even with no stays, the mast will stay.
> 
> My father once told me that if I give him a fulcrum and a long enough 
> pole, he could move the earth.   The Rhodes mast is 26 feet long - IMHO 
> I think it could move a Rhodes.  I will leave that math to the better 
> minds out there but my guess is that with a mast step that can't pop and 
> a stayless mast, somethings got to give, even something as modest as the 
> mast itself breaking or bending instead of lifting the now impossible to 
> lift mast step.
> 
> Do we have a rough weather water volunteer?  Also need a camcorder 
> volunteer to settle this List issue for eternity.
> 
> ss
> 
> 
> On 6/20/13 11:36 PM, Michael Hellyar wrote:
>> I appreciate all the feedback and we will consider all the comments. I explained our logic for through bolting and I hope someone will explain why we are wrong.
>> 
>> Mike Hellyar
>> sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 11:44 AM, R22RumRunner at aol.com wrote:
>> 
>>> Mike,
>>> Please follow the advice of the list (and Stan's) and DO NOT through bolt
>>> the mast step.
>>> 
>>> Rummy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 6/20/2013 9:06:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>> mdh007 at wowway.com writes:
>>> 
>>> We are  re-attaching the mast step fitting. The holes were left uncovered
>>> for years.  We are going to through bolt. Yes, we know Stan's theory. We used
>>> a simple  process described in West System Boat Maintenance. Cured epoxy
>>> can be hard on  drill bits so Steve came up with the idea to slobber match
>>> sticks with some  paste wax use clear tape over the filled holed and stick the
>>> match sticks into  the epoxy to create a pilot small starter pilot. Tape
>>> hold the matchsticks  vertical. And it worked like a charm. And the epoxy
>>> wicked quite a bit to  repair any core damage in the area. By taping the hole
>>> opening in the cabin we  prevented in leakage. Given the strength of epoxy we
>>> could just as well have  re-drilled and screwed into the epoxy.
>>> 
>>> Mike Hellyar
>>> Steve Congdon,  Rhodesmaster I
>>> sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>> Begin forwarded  message:
>>> 
>>>> From: sjcclu <sjcclu at msn.com>
>>>> Date: June  19, 2013, 7:49:17 AM EDT
>>>> To: Mike Hellyar <mdh007 at wowway.com>,  Mike Hellyar <mhellyar22 at yahoo.com>
>>>> Subject: <No  Subject>
>>>> Reply-To: sjcclu <sjcclu at msn.com>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE  Smartphone
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