[Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
Graham Stewart
gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
Wed May 1 18:34:40 EDT 2013
Rummy: That is good advice and reassuring. I'll leave the hull as is.
As for "knowing what I was doing when I bought the boat, that would be an
unqualified exaggeration. I first saw a Rhodes at the Toronto Boat Show in
1975. It cost $5500 new but might as well have cost ten times that amount
as I barely had a nickel. I just went to the show to dream. While there I
picked up Stan's reading material and as everyone with a Rhodes knows, his
description of the boat and its features was totally engrossing as well as
very funny. I never saw a Rhodes after that until about 1994 when one became
available in Hamilton. I had eventually bout several boats over the years
with the latest being a Mirage 27. It was a beautiful boat but I wanted one
I could trailer as I wanted to get to new places and also avoid the hassle
and costs of a bigger boat. I looked at everything that was available in a
trailerable boat but nothing seemed right. But when I saw the ad for the
Rhodes, I knew immediately that is what I wanted. I still had the original
material from 20 years earlier.
The fellow wanted $9,000. That seemed not too far out of place for a similar
boat, motor and trailer. I would have been glad to pay that price as I was
buying a dream as much as I was buying a boat. When I asked, quite meekly,
if he would consider a lower price, he immediately said that he was about to
lower the asking price to $6,500. I managed to keep my composure long enough
to ask, if this was his asking price what would he actually accept? He said
$5,000. Given that I was fully prepare to pay his original price I was
afraid that if I hesitated for a moment longer he would lower his price and
I was already feeling guilty a hell so I practically shouted "sold".
Yes, the boat needed work and I happily spent the summer doing what was
necessary to make it look nice. It was only as time went on that I
discovered more important problems. Two years ago when I was told the boat
had serious deck delamination that would be hell to fix and that I should
just sail it into the dump that I decided to do a keel to masthead rebuild -
starting with the deck as I figured that if I really screwed it up I would
not have lost much. I have done everything since as a complete armature just
figuring it out as best I could along the way.
The point of the story is that I bought a boat as though I was finding a
lost love. The "project" part came later. It was done in complete ignorance
as is usually the case with decisions that involve pure emotion. After all,
is there ever a purely rational reason to own a boat? . But working on my
Rhodes is enormously satisfying, problematic as it is. I wanted a big
challenge and I loved the boat. I don't think there is anything that holds a
candle to it in this class and size of boat. The design is pure genius with
every inevitable compromise being the one I would have chosen had I been
there, with Stan, when it was designed.
Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John Tonjes
Sent: May-01-13 5:15 PM
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
We have discussed the hull bulging while sitting on the trailer many times
previously. As you mentioned, it goes away once launched. Adding additional
support also adds weight and changes the characteristics of the boat from
the original design. I know of a hull where a previous owner attempted to
add additional layers of fiberglass to the hull. It didn't work very well
and during a bottom restoration every bit of it had to be removed. The new
owner had no idea his hull had been done that way.That being said, Stan has
made quite a few changes (most for the good) over the 40+ years that the
Rhodes has been his baby. When changes are made, thought as to total
structural integrity, weight and balance of the hull are always considered.
Simple fact, there ain't much wrong with a Rhodes. My hull is 25+ years old
and I still love to sail her It sounds to me that you purchased a project
boat and hopefully you knew that when you got her. Good luck and keep
posting.
Rummy
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Wed, May 1, 2013 4:47 pm
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
Thanks Rummy.
Actually the hull is only a 74 and I know the earlier work by third party
contractors could be pretty bad. I don't know when Stan brought the work in
house and what he did to change the construction over the years but would
love to hear from anyone who might know.
I try to remember to mention the age of my boat and the fact that my
construction might well be inferior to latter model boats in my posts. So
thanks for making that important point. I don't want to alarm those with
newer boats. At the same time, those with older boats, if there are any
besides me, or those considering the purchase of an older boat might need to
be cautioned.
At the same time, being so old, there may be problems that take a longer
time to become apparent. It is not unreasonable to expect that any boat will
need some substantial reinvigoration after 40 years. It has held its age
better than I have. The boat has its problems but I still think that it is
worth the work to repair especially when you consider the cost of a new
Rhodes.
It seems like the chainplate construction hasn't changed over the years.
Does anyone know if the hull thickness has changed? When I removed the
kitchen and bulkhead I could see that the hull bulged in quite significantly
where the forward strut of the trailer bunk pressed on the hull. I raised
the boat on the trailer to take the weight off the hull and it seems that
the bulge is disappearing. I was considering reinforcing the hull with
additional layers of cloth since it is all exposed at the moment and would
be more inclined to do so if I knew that the newer hulls were thicker.
Does anyone know whether the deck construction and core material has
changed? Better quality plywood that was sealed with resin or epoxy and
bonded strongly to the deck would make a huge difference I would think.
It seems from reading other posts that the hull-deck join in some years was
dependant on screws alone. That would not be an improvement I would think.
The ballast arrangements and fill for the keel have changed a number of
times with some boats having cement poured on the cabin bilge in front of
the mast post and also in the keel. I can't say that I like that idea much
and am thankful that mine appears to be bricks of steel that are bonded to
the hull as well as a mix of what looks like lead flakes and a very soft
resin mix in the keel. At the same time the bottom of the keel appears to be
very weak and has developed a huge crack all around the slot for the
centreboard - something that no one else seems to have experienced. Mine was
not caused by grounding - not over the last 20 years that I have owned it at
least - so I tend to think that the fibreglass in that area was too thin.
Anyway, I agree with Rummy's caution that one should not assume that
construction problems of a boat of my vintage are present in other boats
without careful confirmation.. Nor should we assume that all changes
necessarily turned out to be improvements - especially over the test of
time.
Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
R22RumRunner at aol.com
Sent: May-01-13 3:05 PM
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
Graham,
Just a caution here. Your hull if I remember correctly is a 77 model. Back
in those days Stan had other firms doing his fiberglass work. That's part of
the reason he won't recycle a hull that old. Many of the problems you
encountered are no longer problems with the newer hulls.
Rummy
In a message dated 5/1/2013 10:35:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
gstewart8 at cogeco.ca writes:
Mike:
The picks might work fine. This is really a trial and error process. What
works partly depends on what the sealant is like. Silicone might come out
in longer pieces but other types are more tenacious and will probably have
to be cut or scraped out as it tends to crumble. The concave shape of the
hull makes it easier to get the tool in the slot. You might try protecting
the any visible surface with tape. If you try the hacksaw blade you can get
a plastic handle for a few bucks that will make life easier for you. I
would be reluctant to put anything in the slot that does not completely
compress.
As that might simply hold the gap open. I think the trick is to get the
sealant way up inside and then compress the join before the sealant cures.
You will not get as good a seal if you wait for it to cure even though some
like Don Casey suggest a two-stage process of tightening it down moderately
until the sealant sets and then more firmly afterwards. Mind you, he is
talking about deck hardware where you have big bolts with backing plates
that allow you to apply heavy compressive forces. Others are very critical
of that approach and I happen to agree with them. I want the sealant to
spread out and fill all voids and I can't see that happening once it has
set. Neither can I see how the sealant will adhere to the surfaces once it
has set even if you could apply enough compressive force to make it spread.
When I removes the foredeck of my boat I was able to expose the hull deck
join and found that the sealant has been applied sparsely and with
significant gaps. If your boat is like mine, careful installation of the
sealant will produce much better results than the original. The hard part,
but most critical, is getting the old stuff out.
By the way, if you look at a cross section of the hill-deck join (see
attached photos) you will see that the plywood core at the edge of the deck
is exposed to anything that gets up the slot - whether water of bugs - I
had both. So the problem is not just a matter of a few splashes of water
inside the boat, it is also a matter of possible core rot and bug
infestation. So a good seal is important. Using a sealant with good adhesive
qualities will also strengthen the whole boat. The strongest is
5200 but that stuff is impossible to remove if that ever becomes necessary.
If it is done well, removal should not be necessary so it might be the most
permanent solution but the stuff worries me. It is another one of those
double-edged swords.
As an aside, you will also see from the photos that the plywood core
literally hangs on the outer skin with some kind of caulking and the inner
liner then hangs onto the plywood core. There is no structural support that
I could find. So, all of the downward force is pulling the sandwich
construction apart. Even the adhesive between the layers of the plywood had
given way. I hope that later model boats use better plywood. With flexing
over the years it can all come apart. When I removed the foredeck on my
boat I found that the caulking holding the plywood to the outer skin and
liner was very sparse and in places not even touching both surfaces. I
could pull the liner off and remove the plywood with my hands. Hence the
spongy deck. You can see the delamination in the close up photo. Of course
this kind of "fix" was extreme and ultimately was unnecessary once I knew
what was happening inside the core but at least it provides some photos of
what is under the skin of the deck for those who might have a spongy deck
and are wondering about the options to fix it. As you might guess, putting
it all back together was a major pain. I wish I had know then what I know
now. It would have saved me a ton of work. On the other hand I now have a
foredeck that is as solid as concrete and probably able to pierce a steel
hull - which is nice for a change.
BTW, I have a vent in the cabin top that once removed gave me a view of the
core at least in that area. It appears to me that the top is made much
better with a core that is over one inch thick. I saw no indication of
delamination, thank goodness.
Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Mike C
Sent: May-01-13 6:46 AM
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
Graham - thanks for the idea of wedging the joint open a bit wider to get
the sealant further in! Muireann definitely has screws that were behind
the rub rail mounting strip and, so far at least, no rivets that I've
found.
Starting to clean things up. I'll try the hack saw blade, though I confess
some trepidation about damaging her paint. Also, our friends at Harbor
Freight have a four piece hook and pick set
(http://www.harborfreight.com/4-piece-pick-and-hook-set-66836.html) on sale
this month if your get their coupon book mailing. For $1.49 it may be
worth a try. The depth of the gap has me tempted to try to get something
else way
up in the gap before trying to force sealant in. On Muireann it looks as
if
the sealant was in general only intruded about halfway up the gap. I could
probably push something up higher to help serve as a further water
intrusion deterrent, maybe rope caulk, if that's still around, or teflon
valve stem rope. Heck, even 1/8" inch nylon or PP cording would slow down
any water intrusion that got by the sealant and maybe turn what would have
been a "squirt" from burying the bow into a trickle. Oh well, plenty of
time to think about that while I clean out as much of the old sealant as I
can.
-----
Mike Cheung
s/v Muireann
--
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