[Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
Graham Stewart
gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
Thu May 2 14:30:14 EDT 2013
Thanks Peter. This might be quite useful.
Graham Stewart
gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
613 389-1737
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Peter and Jennifer
Sent: May-02-13 8:47 AM
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
Graham,great Canadian idea in good old boat, ultimate mast raising setup,
wish l had this for my old
yawl.http://www.goodoldboat.com/promo_pdfs/May13_Promo.pdfpeter
> From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 18:34:40 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
>
> Rummy: That is good advice and reassuring. I'll leave the hull as is.
>
> As for "knowing what I was doing when I bought the boat, that would be
> an unqualified exaggeration. I first saw a Rhodes at the Toronto Boat
> Show in 1975. It cost $5500 new but might as well have cost ten times
> that amount as I barely had a nickel. I just went to the show to
> dream. While there I picked up Stan's reading material and as everyone
> with a Rhodes knows, his description of the boat and its features was
> totally engrossing as well as very funny. I never saw a Rhodes after
> that until about 1994 when one became available in Hamilton. I had
> eventually bout several boats over the years with the latest being a
> Mirage 27. It was a beautiful boat but I wanted one I could trailer as
> I wanted to get to new places and also avoid the hassle and costs of a
> bigger boat. I looked at everything that was available in a
> trailerable boat but nothing seemed right. But when I saw the ad for
> the Rhodes, I knew immediately that is what I wanted. I still had the
original material from 20 years earlier.
>
> The fellow wanted $9,000. That seemed not too far out of place for a
> similar boat, motor and trailer. I would have been glad to pay that
> price as I was buying a dream as much as I was buying a boat. When I
> asked, quite meekly, if he would consider a lower price, he
> immediately said that he was about to lower the asking price to
> $6,500. I managed to keep my composure long enough to ask, if this was
> his asking price what would he actually accept? He said $5,000. Given
> that I was fully prepare to pay his original price I was afraid that
> if I hesitated for a moment longer he would lower his price and I was
already feeling guilty a hell so I practically shouted "sold".
>
> Yes, the boat needed work and I happily spent the summer doing what
> was necessary to make it look nice. It was only as time went on that I
> discovered more important problems. Two years ago when I was told the
> boat had serious deck delamination that would be hell to fix and that
> I should just sail it into the dump that I decided to do a keel to
> masthead rebuild - starting with the deck as I figured that if I
> really screwed it up I would not have lost much. I have done
> everything since as a complete armature just figuring it out as best I
could along the way.
>
> The point of the story is that I bought a boat as though I was finding
> a lost love. The "project" part came later. It was done in complete
> ignorance as is usually the case with decisions that involve pure
> emotion. After all, is there ever a purely rational reason to own a
> boat? . But working on my Rhodes is enormously satisfying, problematic
> as it is. I wanted a big challenge and I loved the boat. I don't think
> there is anything that holds a candle to it in this class and size of
> boat. The design is pure genius with every inevitable compromise being
> the one I would have chosen had I been there, with Stan, when it was
designed.
>
> Graham
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John Tonjes
> Sent: May-01-13 5:15 PM
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
>
> We have discussed the hull bulging while sitting on the trailer many
> times previously. As you mentioned, it goes away once launched. Adding
> additional support also adds weight and changes the characteristics of
> the boat from the original design. I know of a hull where a previous
> owner attempted to add additional layers of fiberglass to the hull. It
> didn't work very well and during a bottom restoration every bit of it
> had to be removed. The new owner had no idea his hull had been done
> that way.That being said, Stan has made quite a few changes (most for
> the good) over the 40+ years that the Rhodes has been his baby. When
> changes are made, thought as to total structural integrity, weight and
balance of the hull are always considered.
> Simple fact, there ain't much wrong with a Rhodes. My hull is 25+
> years old and I still love to sail her It sounds to me that you
> purchased a project boat and hopefully you knew that when you got her.
> Good luck and keep posting.
>
> Rummy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Wed, May 1, 2013 4:47 pm
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
>
>
> Thanks Rummy.
>
> Actually the hull is only a 74 and I know the earlier work by third
> party contractors could be pretty bad. I don't know when Stan brought
> the work in house and what he did to change the construction over the
> years but would love to hear from anyone who might know.
>
> I try to remember to mention the age of my boat and the fact that my
> construction might well be inferior to latter model boats in my posts.
> So thanks for making that important point. I don't want to alarm
> those with newer boats. At the same time, those with older boats, if
> there are any besides me, or those considering the purchase of an
> older boat might need to be cautioned.
>
> At the same time, being so old, there may be problems that take a
> longer time to become apparent. It is not unreasonable to expect that
> any boat will need some substantial reinvigoration after 40 years. It
> has held its age better than I have. The boat has its problems but I
> still think that it is worth the work to repair especially when you
> consider the cost of a new Rhodes.
>
> It seems like the chainplate construction hasn't changed over the years.
>
> Does anyone know if the hull thickness has changed? When I removed the
> kitchen and bulkhead I could see that the hull bulged in quite
> significantly where the forward strut of the trailer bunk pressed on
> the hull. I raised the boat on the trailer to take the weight off the
> hull and it seems that the bulge is disappearing. I was considering
> reinforcing the hull with additional layers of cloth since it is all
> exposed at the moment and would be more inclined to do so if I knew that
the newer hulls were thicker.
>
> Does anyone know whether the deck construction and core material has
> changed? Better quality plywood that was sealed with resin or epoxy
> and bonded strongly to the deck would make a huge difference I would
think.
>
> It seems from reading other posts that the hull-deck join in some
> years was dependant on screws alone. That would not be an improvement I
would think.
>
> The ballast arrangements and fill for the keel have changed a number
> of times with some boats having cement poured on the cabin bilge in
> front of the mast post and also in the keel. I can't say that I like
> that idea much and am thankful that mine appears to be bricks of steel
> that are bonded to the hull as well as a mix of what looks like lead
> flakes and a very soft resin mix in the keel. At the same time the
> bottom of the keel appears to be very weak and has developed a huge
> crack all around the slot for the centreboard - something that no one
> else seems to have experienced. Mine was not caused by grounding - not
> over the last 20 years that I have owned it at least - so I tend to think
that the fibreglass in that area was too thin.
>
> Anyway, I agree with Rummy's caution that one should not assume that
> construction problems of a boat of my vintage are present in other
> boats without careful confirmation.. Nor should we assume that all
> changes necessarily turned out to be improvements - especially over
> the test of time.
>
>
> Graham
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
> R22RumRunner at aol.com
> Sent: May-01-13 3:05 PM
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
>
> Graham,
> Just a caution here. Your hull if I remember correctly is a 77 model.
> Back in those days Stan had other firms doing his fiberglass work.
> That's part of the reason he won't recycle a hull that old. Many of
> the problems you encountered are no longer problems with the newer hulls.
>
> Rummy
>
>
> In a message dated 5/1/2013 10:35:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca writes:
>
> Mike:
>
> The picks might work fine. This is really a trial and error process.
> What works partly depends on what the sealant is like. Silicone might
> come out in longer pieces but other types are more tenacious and will
> probably have to be cut or scraped out as it tends to crumble. The
> concave shape of the hull makes it easier to get the tool in the
> slot. You might try protecting the any visible surface with tape. If
> you try the hacksaw blade you can get a plastic handle for a few
> bucks that will make life easier for you. I would be reluctant to
> put anything in the slot that does not completely compress.
> As that might simply hold the gap open. I think the trick is to get
> the sealant way up inside and then compress the join before the sealant
cures.
> You will not get as good a seal if you wait for it to cure even
> though some like Don Casey suggest a two-stage process of tightening
> it down moderately until the sealant sets and then more firmly
> afterwards. Mind you, he is talking about deck hardware where you have
> big bolts with backing plates that allow you to apply heavy
> compressive forces. Others are very critical of that approach and I
> happen to agree with them. I want the sealant to spread out and fill
> all voids and I can't see that happening once it has set. Neither can
> I see how the sealant will adhere to the surfaces once it has set even if
you could apply enough compressive force to make it spread.
>
> When I removes the foredeck of my boat I was able to expose the hull
> deck join and found that the sealant has been applied sparsely and
> with significant gaps. If your boat is like mine, careful
> installation of the sealant will produce much better results than the
> original. The hard part, but most critical, is getting the old stuff out.
>
> By the way, if you look at a cross section of the hill-deck join (see
> attached photos) you will see that the plywood core at the edge of the
> deck is exposed to anything that gets up the slot - whether water of
> bugs - I had both. So the problem is not just a matter of a few
> splashes of water inside the boat, it is also a matter of possible
> core rot and bug infestation. So a good seal is important. Using a
> sealant with good adhesive qualities will also strengthen the whole
> boat. The strongest is
> 5200 but that stuff is impossible to remove if that ever becomes
necessary.
> If it is done well, removal should not be necessary so it might be the
> most permanent solution but the stuff worries me. It is another one of
> those double-edged swords.
>
> As an aside, you will also see from the photos that the plywood core
> literally hangs on the outer skin with some kind of caulking and the
> inner liner then hangs onto the plywood core. There is no structural
> support that I could find. So, all of the downward force is pulling
> the sandwich construction apart. Even the adhesive between the layers
> of the plywood had given way. I hope that later model boats use better
plywood. With flexing
> over the years it can all come apart. When I removed the foredeck on my
> boat I found that the caulking holding the plywood to the outer skin
> and liner was very sparse and in places not even touching both
> surfaces. I could pull the liner off and remove the plywood with my
> hands. Hence the spongy deck. You can see the delamination in the
> close up photo. Of course this kind of "fix" was extreme and
> ultimately was unnecessary once I knew what was happening inside the
> core but at least it provides some photos of what is under the skin
> of the deck for those who might have a spongy deck and are wondering
> about the options to fix it. As you might guess, putting it all back
> together was a major pain. I wish I had know then what I know now. It
> would have saved me a ton of work. On the other hand I now have a
> foredeck that is as solid as concrete and probably able to pierce a steel
hull - which is nice for a change.
>
> BTW, I have a vent in the cabin top that once removed gave me a view
> of the core at least in that area. It appears to me that the top is
> made much better with a core that is over one inch thick. I saw no
> indication of delamination, thank goodness.
>
> Graham
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Mike C
> Sent: May-01-13 6:46 AM
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
>
> Graham - thanks for the idea of wedging the joint open a bit wider to
> get the sealant further in! Muireann definitely has screws that were
> behind the rub rail mounting strip and, so far at least, no rivets
> that I've found.
> Starting to clean things up. I'll try the hack saw blade, though I
> confess some trepidation about damaging her paint. Also, our friends
> at Harbor Freight have a four piece hook and pick set
> (http://www.harborfreight.com/4-piece-pick-and-hook-set-66836.html) on
> sale this month if your get their coupon book mailing. For $1.49 it
> may be worth a try. The depth of the gap has me tempted to try to get
> something else way
> up in the gap before trying to force sealant in. On Muireann it looks as
> if
> the sealant was in general only intruded about halfway up the gap. I
> could probably push something up higher to help serve as a further
> water intrusion deterrent, maybe rope caulk, if that's still around,
> or teflon valve stem rope. Heck, even 1/8" inch nylon or PP cording
> would slow down any water intrusion that got by the sealant and maybe
> turn what would have been a "squirt" from burying the bow into a
> trickle. Oh well, plenty of time to think about that while I clean
> out as much of the old sealant as I can.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Cheung
> s/v Muireann
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://rhodes-22.1065344.n5.nabble.com/hull-deck-joint-reseal-question
> s-tp45
> 504p45529.html
> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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