[Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole - and Stan's info

The Rhodes 22 Email List rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Sat Jan 17 12:12:43 EST 2015 

Thanks Rick. 

I didn't think this would be such a difficult question but given that a
number of us are in the process of rebuilding the floor structure and others
have had to do so in the past, it would be great to get a definitive answer
about how the boats of different vintage were built, or should be built.

I think, however, I have found my answer from a message that Stan posted on
June 5, 2013 with the subject "Educational Rebuttal" in which he very
helpfully detailed much of the evolution of the R22 over the years. Here is
the section of that message dealing with hull stiffness and floor stringers:

"In those days of simplified pricing, it was by the pound - glass and resin
used.  The lighter the boat the more competitive, price wise. The Ventures
came along and made this building, an art form.  In water it did not seem to
matter - on land the art form had its weak points, particularly on trailers.
In my fifties standing in the lazaret, feeling the flexing hull bottom
underfoot, was unnerving. Molding the Rhodes keel as an integrated part of
the hull itself, made the Rhodes mid-ship bottom, naturally stiff, whereas
competitive boats bolted on their keels.  Few boats had flotation. Those
that did accomplished it with chunks of bought foam planks, as we ourselves
did - in our early days; until it dawned on us to marry the two by molding
the foam to fit the hull, then glass it in to stiffen the cockpit and bow
sections of the boat bottom.  It also dawned on us that a modest redesign of
the floor unit stringers and their glassing in, added more bottom stiffness.
By the time we moved the making of the hulls to our own shop, we had matured
enough to have given up on the price wars.  We started to lay up the port
side hull glass so it continued on across the bottom, and the starboard side
glass lay up so it too continued on across the bottom.   With the hull sides
extraordinarily stiff from the Rhodes unusual compound curved flared hull
shape, now its bottom was extraordinarily stiff from being twice the
thickness of the sides. The hulls we build today in our own facility are so
extraordinarily stiff that we lift the boats by their bow eye and transom
eyes and boat shape shows no deflection.  This amazing difference from our
early boats /is/ probably overkill because I do not know of any other
builder who moves their boats around supported at only its two extremes."

So it seems that hull stiffness is a good thing and that older boats might
benefit from glassed-in stringers more than the newer ones.

I wish Stan would write the book he keeps musing about. He is a great writer
and has a story to tell that few could equal.


Graham 



-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22 Email
List
Sent: January-16-15 2:19 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole

Graham,

Glassing stringers to the hull is common in the industry.  The resin used to
fill the glass mat is the same resin used to build the outer hull, thus
matching elasticity.  Often the purpose of the wood is just to establish
form while glassing.  I helped a friend cut into a stringer of his 25 year
old Jeneau to box around space needed for a new A/C compressor.  The wood
had turned to cardboard, but the stringer was fine.

In Todd's case, I expect his stringers are attached not with epoxy, but with
an adhesive for that purpose, like 3M 5200.

Rick

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 12:40 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List <
rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:

> Rick:
>
> Are not the stringers glassed to the hull already? Certainly mine were 
> so I have assumed that was the original construction. If not, I would 
> like to know how they were installed.
>
> You are right about sealing all holes with epoxy.
>
> Graham
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22 
> Email List
> Sent: January-15-15 8:10 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole
>
> Graham,
>
> I don't think any quality boat builder has ever bonded a fiberglass 
> hull to stringers with epoxy.  Stringers are rigid, fiberglass hulls are
flexible.
> Since epoxy cannot absorb flex, the hull would be prone to crack along 
> the edges of the stringers bonded with epoxy.
>
> Another caveat on epoxy is using it to coat wood.  Anything that keeps 
> water out, keeps water in.  If you coat stringers with epoxy, you will 
> need to follow the same sealing protocol when drilling holes into 
> epoxied stringers as you do with the wood cored deck.  It would be 
> more convenient to coat your new stringers with a bilge primer/sealer.
>
> Rick
>
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 1:39 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List < 
> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>
> > Bob:
> > I think any of your alternatives might work but when I install mine 
> > next summer I intend to use epoxy with fibreglass tape for these
reasons:
> > 1, I have done a lot of work with epoxy and am comfortable using it 
> > and I have it along with the fillers on hand, 2, wood adequately 
> > encapsulated in epoxy (3+ coats) should be impervious to rot 
> > permitting the use of less expensive wood, 3, bonded to the hull the 
> > stringers would add very significantly to the rigidity of the hull, 
> > and 4, the stringers will not flex and therefore will not come loose.
> >
> > I don't know how important point three is but given that the 
> > original stringers were boned to the hull with cloth and polyester 
> > resin, I would feel safer doing the same. Polyester is the other 
> > choice. It is much cheaper than epoxy but not a strong and not 
> > impervious to water vapour.
> >
> > Graham
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 
> > 22 Email List
> > Sent: January-15-15 1:05 PM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole
> >
> > Ok let me stir the pot again.  Should i bed my new stringers in 5200 
> > or epoxy them in or fiberglass tape and resin??
> > Thoughts anyone?
> > Bob
> >
> > > On Jan 15, 2015, at 12:07 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > 5200 is also permanent! Don't use it if you think you might ever 
> > > want or need to remove it.
> > >
> > > Graham
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The 
> > > Rhodes
> > > 22 Email List
> > > Sent: January-15-15 10:04 AM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole
> > >
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > > 3M 5200 is an adhesive, not a sealant.  A silicone sealant will 
> > > give you better results.
> > >
> > > Rick
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 9:55 AM, The Rhodes 22 Email List < 
> > > rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Graham: Yes that is what i meant.  These boats have a notoriously 
> > >> leaky hull to deck joint.  Stan explained it was due to the 
> > >> workers ineptitude he had applying the joint caulk during those
years.
> > >> They probably caulked the seam after the hull and deck were 
> > >> fastened instead of caulking both sides then putting the sandwich 
> > >> together and just
> > > wiping away the excess.
> > >> I am going to remove the rail, clean out as much old caulk as i 
> > >> can and then seal it with 3m 5200 and re-attach the rub rail. It 
> > >> shouldnt leak any more.  I did this once before on an 80's era 
> > >> boat and it worked
> > > great.
> > >> Shortcuts were happening in every industry back then.
> > >>
> > >>>> On Jan 15, 2015, at 9:43 AM, The Rhodes 22 Email List <
> > >>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I doubt that it is the rub rail that is leaking. If it is 
> > >>> leaking through the screw holes you might get away with just 
> > >>> removing the screws one at a time and reinserting with sealant. 
> > >>> It is more likely that the leak is
> > >> behind
> > >>> the rub rail where the deck and hull join.
> > >>>
> > >>> Graham
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The 
> > >>> Rhodes
> > >>> 22
> > >> Email
> > >>> List
> > >>> Sent: January-15-15 6:56 AM
> > >>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks Rummy.
> > >>> Yes i already have the bleach and scrub brush out there.  I am 
> > >>> going to
> > >> do
> > >>> the rub rail first though.  Very leaky boat!
> > >>> Bob
> > >>>
> > >>>>> On Jan 15, 2015, at 5:06 AM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > >>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm sure you are aware of this,but the photo shows a great deal 
> > >>>> of
> > > mold.
> > >>>> You might want to clean the area really good with a soapy 
> > >>>> bleach solution prior  to installing the new stringers.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Rummy
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In a message dated 1/14/2015 9:29:05 P.M. Eastern Standard 
> > >>>> Time, rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org writes:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/201
> > >>>> 50
> > >>>> 11
> > >>>> 4/6
> > >>>> 474727
> > >>>> 0/attachment.JPG
> > >>>> __________________________________________________
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