[Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
The Rhodes 22 Email List
rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Wed Jun 3 20:56:28 EDT 2015
Mike:
Thanks so much for your advice and suggestions. I am trying to test
everything before I begin in order to minimize my substantial proclivity for
screwing things up. It is one of those all or nothing propositions: it
either works out beautifully or is a disaster. This is not something where I
want to learn from my mistakes.
You have confirmed my thinking with the choice of materials and that is
comforting. Placing the piece starting in the centre is an interesting
suggestion. I have never seen how a windshield is installed so I will see if
there are any YouTube videos that show the procedure. I will have vertical
strips of tape on either side of each port so perhaps I could use one in the
centre of the panel as an anchor point and work from there. I will practice
that approach and see how it works.
I am not sure how I would remove the tape cover as I apply the Plexiglas as,
already noted, I will have the tape at the top, bottom and at either end of
each port. So it is not all one continuous strip and pulling it off would
likely mess up the sealant. I will need to think about that.
I really appreciate the thought you gave this.
Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22 Email
List
Sent: June-03-15 6:48 PM
To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
Graham,
I have been following your endeavor with great interest. You have attempted
to test and solve each material problem (or feature) BEFORE trying it on the
Rhodes! This level of DIY capability is truly rare. You are to be commended
for your efforts.
Now, about the issues that you still face.
1)"Spring Back" - Have you thought about heating the material when held in
place prior to applying the adhesives? It generally takes very little heat
(hair dryer or paint stripper) CAREFULLY applied to the surface to cause a
permanent curvature in the material. You must take care not to overheat the
exterior surface (causes bubbles and other distortions) while applying
enough heat to the material. Be especially aware that the surface in
contact with the interior, the fiberglass cabin top, may act as a heat sink,
removing large amounts of the energy that you apply. Commercial entities
would probably heat the window using a low temperature oven or strip heater
before applying to the cabin to acquire the curvature.
2)"Different Coefficients of Expansion" - I think that you have addressed
this concern with the tape and seal system that you are using. I am not
familiar with the exact materials you have chosen to work with but, as you
have noted, the tape is used to seal glass and metal in buildings. It
should therefore work well in your instance.
3)Alignment of window - Rather than starting at one edge and working to the
opposite side, is it possible to accurately mark the center location so that
you can start in the middle and work to each edge? This should result in a
smaller error since only half of the panel remains to be fitted. You may
also be able to leave the carrier on the tape until the position is
verified, similar to the way an auto windshield is replaced in the field.
The technician pulls the protective carrier off the tape as the windshield
is pressed into place.
I'm not sure if any of this is useful but I thought that I would try to
help.
Mike
s/v Windlass ('91)
Nissequogue River, NY
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22 Email
List
Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2015 4:43 PM
To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
Bob:
Thanks for the suggestion. Last time I did this I used screws and would like
to avoid using any hardware at all this time. The difference in expansion
between the lexan and the fibreglass resulted in the lexan breaking around
many of the screws - especially at the ends of the Lexan panel. The only way
to use hardware is to enlarge the holes. Make sue the screws are dead
centre, use screws with a washer of screws with a broad head and be very
particular about how tight the screws are. They need to be tight enough to
seal the joint, especially with neoprene gasket that must be compressed to
seal, but loose enough to allow for expansion. No one can tell me how to
determine what that torque should be. Screws look stronger but in practice
create as many problems as they solve.
Many boats are manufactured today using the materials and process I intend
to use and without the use of any hardware. So the method is not new and was
certainly not invented by me. There is quite a bit on the internet about it
and some of the info and videos for the tape by 3M are quite impressive. If
the tape will hold glass panels in tall buildings around the world or steel
panels on trailers I doubt that melting will be a problem. Besides, in
Ontario we celebrate when the ice melts. The silicone is not used primarily
as the adhesive, the tape does that, but it is used to seal the joint. It
remains soft and flexible whether hot or cold.
The special problems associated with using this hardware-free method for
attaching acrylic panels to the Rhodes are:
1) that the cabin sides on the Rhodes are curved - particularly lengthwise
but also twist vertically. The spring-back of the panel wants to pull the
joint apart so the adhesive qualities of the tape have to be sufficient to
overcome this until the panel eventually sets in the shape of the cabin.
2) the panels are large and that means greater expansion differences between
the acrylic and the fibreglass - so the tape and sealant must be
sufficiently flexible to allow for that movement and,
3) the size of the panel and shape of the cabin make placing the panel in
the exactly correct position and with no opportunity to reposition it likely
to be difficult. At this point I am pretty confident about the ability of
the tape and sealant to handle the first two points but the third point is
another matter and is the part I worry about most. But who knows?
If the panels pop off for any reason I will let everyone know what went
wrong.
Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22 Email
List
Sent: June-03-15 1:48 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
Graham: i would consider a black neoprene gasket with small through bolts
(or machine screws). I think it would look good and be less likely to leak
or fall off. Down here in florida when adhesive gets hot it just melts and
lets go. Just MHO. :-) Bob (palatka)
> On Jun 3, 2015, at 12:31 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
<rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>
> Mary Lou:
>
> I will paint the inside of the acrylic panel everywhere except where
> the openings will be. I intend to do this by removing the protective
> paper everywhere except the port opening, then paint the panel and
> finally remove the paper over the opening once the panel is installed.
> In the picture I provided with the panels painted the paper covering
> is still over the port area so it looks solid. You can't see the paper
> covering in the picture. I could remove the paper before I install the
> panel but it seems sensible to leave that area protected from
> scratches and any sealant that might get smeared on it during
installation.
>
> I have attached a picture showing the plywood template, for the panel,
> the Formica template (white) for the opening and the two acrylic
> panels with the protective paper still on and the opening areas marked.
>
> The acrylic panel is deep tinted so perhaps nothing will show through
> but the tinting is not opaque and I suspect that in sunlight the grey
> tape and white cabin will show. I don't have a spare piece of the
> tinted acrylic to test this as I had the dealer cut the original panel
> for me using a plywood template that I provided. I should have asked
> for some scrap piece. I did have some clear acrylic that I used to
> test painting and the cutting and removal of the paper. I have
> attached a picture of the clear acrylic, partially painted and with
> the opening protective paper pealed back on both sides. That might
> make
what I am describing a litter easier to follow.
>
> I have attached a picture of the boat with the lexan windows that I
> attached back in 1995. The picture was taken 20 years later when the
> paint had pealed and you can see the cabin and peeling paint under
> through the Lexan. Hence my obsession with using the right paint.
>
> For more about my paint selection I have attached a picture of panels
> of Lexan coated with various paints along with observational comments.
> I think it demonstrates fairly well why the barbeque paint seemed
> superior for this task.
>
> I hope that helps.
>
> Graham
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22
> Email List
> Sent: June-02-15 11:51 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
>
> Nice write up Graham but I must be missing a sentence or an email or
> something.
>
> If you are going to have Lexan windows, why paint them? I read the
> part about "to make sure that the grey tape and white sides of the
> cabin did not show through" but if you are painting the whole window
> why
use Lexan at all?
> Or can you still see out through the paint? do the windows let light in?
>
> I'm confused.
>
> Mary Lou
> 1991 R22 Fretless
> (recycled 1998)
> still on the hard
> but just about ready
> to splash for the season
> in Rock Hall, MD
>
>
>
> At 11:16 AM 6/2/2015, you wrote:
>> For those who are interested in replacing cabin ports with acrylic
>> panels, I thought I would bring you up to date on my highly
>> scientific experiments using the method of attaching windows without
>> using any hardware.
>>
>> My experiments were intended to demonstrate for me the strength of a
>> joint using Dow Corning silicone # 795 and 3M brand tape VHB 4991 and
>> the paint I intended to use to coat the inside of the acrylic panel.
>>
>> First, I joined some pieces of Lexan I had using the tape and the
>> sealant and let it sit for 48 hours for the sealant to cure. At 48
>> hours the sealant is about 90% cured but it continues to cure for 72
>> hours. I couldn't wait that long. I attached a small piece of lexan
>> (about 1.5" x 3") to a larger piece at a corner. I messed up the
>> sealant with the result that I got some on top of the tape - which
>> seems like a distinct possibility when I do the large panels so I was
>> curious to see what effect that had. By leaving the smaller piece
>> extending beyond the larger piece I had a tab that I could use to
>> peal the pieces apart. I have attached a picture of what I call the
>> "flex test".
>>
>> By holding the main piece down and lifting up on the tab I was able
>> to bend the panels far beyond any curvature on the cabin side of the
>> boat without any sign of the joint letting g. Also. the joint had
>> enough flex that the panels could move past each other slightly to
>> allow for a nice even bend. When I bent the joint to the maximum the
>> lexan broke (see photo) before any sign that the joint was weakening.
>> Lexan is very flexible and strong so that seemed to me to be a good
>> sign although I should note that the Lexan was only 3/16"
>> thick. I figure that if I can't break the join even on small pieces
>> without destroying the Lexan, that has to be a very strong and
>> flexible
> joint.
>>
>> As an aside, the sealant has a useful life of one year. When I
>> ordered mine it was already 8 months old and expired in March 2015.
>> I called 3M last fall to see if there was any way to extend the life
>> of the material. The technical support person told me to seal it up
>> in plastic and put it in my freezer - which I did. He then told me to
>> test it before using it by laying out a bead and letting it sit for 3
hours.
>> If it skinned over, it was good but if it stayed wet it will never
>> cure
>> - even though it looks fine coming out of the tube.
>> I Had thought that old material would harden in the tube so that was
>> potentially very useful to know. I have read online where others
>> complained that this sealant never cured and I expect they were using
>> material that was too old. In my case it appears the freezing worked
>> as the sealant cured up nicely.
>>
>> Although the acrylic panels I am using are dark tinted, I wanted to
>> make sure that the grey tape and white sides of the cabin did not
>> show through so I needed to find a suitable paint to coat the inside.
>> I wanted something that would adhere tenaciously to acrylic so that
>> in turn the tape and sealant would adhere to the paint. I also wanted
>> something that would apply by spray to give a perfectly even coat and
>> preferably was fast drying. Articles I read advised using engine
>> exhaust paint. The particular types suggested were not available
>> locally and a ridiculous price to order by mail across the Canada/US
>> border. Also I noticed that application instructions for similar
>> paints available locally specified that it dries easily but does not
>> cure until it is brought up to a high heat. That , of course , is not
>> going to happen with acrylic so I was left wondering how it would
>> work in an uncured state.
>>
>> I experimented with a number of paints - especially paints that are
>> intended for plastic. The first time I did this in 1995 I used some
>> sort of enamel that subsequently pealed of even though it was between
>> the Lexan and the cabin side. It was thick, soft and had poor
>> adhesion with Lexan. So I wanted something better than that. I
>> noticed that the paints I was testing went on thick and took a long
>> time to dry. They also scratched off too easily for my liking. I then
>> tried some barbeque paint that I had. The paint is intended for high
>> heat applications but had a maximum temperature of 600 degrees
>> - which is much lower than the exhaust paint but still much higher
>> than anything the boat will ever face before I am jumping overboard
>> and it does not require heat to cure. It also sprays on beautifully
>> in thin coats, dries to touch in a few minutes - no dust problems -
>> and can be recoated several time within an hour. That meant that I
>> could apply multiple thin and even coats. It give!
>> s a satin finish rather than high gloss which I thought might make a
>> better surface for the tape to adhere to. I first painted pieces of
>> Lexan and clear acrylic and let it sit for about 3 months to see if
>> there was any indication of incompatibility between the paint and
>> the plastic. There was no sign of incompatibility that I could see.
>>
>> I tested the adhesion of the paint by trying to scratch it off soon
>> after application and after several months and by applying a variety
>> of tapes - duct tape and packing tape, house wrap tape etc, - and
>> then peal it back both while the paint was fresh and after the tape
>> had been in place for several months. As the flex test shows I also
>> tried adhesion with the double-sided tape and, as noted, the lexan
>> broke before the seal showed any sign of letting go. I also applied
>> sealant, let it cure , and tried to remove it by pealing it back.
>> The "paint test" is shown in an attached picture. It shows packing
>> tape that had been left in place for several months. The tape was
>> firmly attached but came off cleanly leaving the paint firmly
>> attached to the Lexan. Scratching the paint with a sharp object left
>> a scratch, of course, but did not remove any of the surrounding
>> paint. So I think this is a good paint for this application.
>>
>> To prepare the windows, I cut the acrylic panels from a 1/8" plywood
>> template, routed a slight bevel on the outside edges, laid out where
>> the opening in the cabin were, made a template for consistent
>> openings made out of Formica (which works well because it is thin and
>> hard) and then cut the protective paper around what will be the
>> openings using the template and exacto knife. I then removed all the
>> protective covering except where the openings will be and painted the
>> pieces with four thin coats of barbeque paint. I have attached a
>> photo of the painted pieces.
>>
>> After the acrylic is attached to the boat I will remove the masking
>> tape on the outside of the acrylic panes, the tape on the cabin sides
>> and remove the protective paper from the outside of the panels and
>> the inside of the open part. I tested whether I would be able to
>> peel off the inside sections once it had been painted over especially
>> given that it will be difficult to raise an edge once the panels are
>> installed. I found that if I apply a strip of packing tape to the
>> covering paper leaving the end folded over so I can grab it, when I
>> peal it back the tape holds sufficiently to raise the protective
>> paper cleanly avoiding the need to scratch up an edge.
>> Hopefully that works in the real life situation. I would hate to have
>> acrylic panels permanently attached with paper coving the opening
>> that I can't remove.
>>
>> So I have chosen all the materials and tested them as best I can for
>> suitability. I have also worked out a temporary clamping system to
>> hold the panels in place while the tape and sealant cure. That might
>> be unnecessary but given the curve of the cabin I don't want to take
>> a chance on that part. I have masked the boat around the edge of the
>> acrylic and sanded the paint on the cabin side so that is flat ,
>> smooth but dulled (220 grit). Now all that is left is to attach the
>> actual panels and frankly that is what worries me most. While online
>> instructions suggest applying the tape and sealant to the panel and
>> then apply the panel to the boat, my thinking is that because the
>> cabin side is a compound curve I would be better to apply the tape
>> and sealant to the cabin and then press the panel into place.
>>
>> Time matters. I don't have forever to apply the sealant and remove
>> the tape cover before pressing the panel on and worse still, I only
>> get one chance to get the panel in the exact location. There is
>> really no room for error. I have "rehearsed" placing the panel with
>> my wife but that was without any of the tape or sealant. The cabin
>> side has a moulded in edge at both the bottom and the aft end that
>> are very helpful guides but one still need to make sure from the
>> moment of first touch that everything is aligned perfectly so that
>> the rest will wrap into place exactly where it is supposed to be. My
>> hope is that I can rest the bottom edge and aft corner against the
>> little raised edge first and then wrap the piece up into place at the
top.
>>
>> If anyone has any clever ideas about how I could make the process
>> idiot proof I would be forever grateful. The idea of having to use a
>> chisel and grinder to remove the misaligned panels has no appeal to
>> me at this juncture. I think I will need a very good shot of Rummy's
>> Mont Gay medicine to calm my nerves first.
>>
>>
>> Graham
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>
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