[Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
The Rhodes 22 Email List
rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Thu Jun 4 16:17:21 EDT 2015
Graham: I too like your approach and applaud your meticulous efforts. If we are placing bets i place mine that the double sided adhesive will fail miserably.
I Hope i am wrong buddy!
Bob (palatka)
> On Jun 3, 2015, at 4:42 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>
> Bob:
>
> Thanks for the suggestion. Last time I did this I used screws and would like
> to avoid using any hardware at all this time. The difference in expansion
> between the lexan and the fibreglass resulted in the lexan breaking around
> many of the screws - especially at the ends of the Lexan panel. The only way
> to use hardware is to enlarge the holes. Make sue the screws are dead
> centre, use screws with a washer of screws with a broad head and be very
> particular about how tight the screws are. They need to be tight enough to
> seal the joint, especially with neoprene gasket that must be compressed to
> seal, but loose enough to allow for expansion. No one can tell me how to
> determine what that torque should be. Screws look stronger but in practice
> create as many problems as they solve.
>
> Many boats are manufactured today using the materials and process I intend
> to use and without the use of any hardware. So the method is not new and was
> certainly not invented by me. There is quite a bit on the internet about it
> and some of the info and videos for the tape by 3M are quite impressive. If
> the tape will hold glass panels in tall buildings around the world or steel
> panels on trailers I doubt that melting will be a problem. Besides, in
> Ontario we celebrate when the ice melts. The silicone is not used primarily
> as the adhesive, the tape does that, but it is used to seal the joint. It
> remains soft and flexible whether hot or cold.
>
> The special problems associated with using this hardware-free method for
> attaching acrylic panels to the Rhodes are:
> 1) that the cabin sides on the Rhodes are curved - particularly lengthwise
> but also twist vertically. The spring-back of the panel wants to pull the
> joint apart so the adhesive qualities of the tape have to be sufficient to
> overcome this until the panel eventually sets in the shape of the cabin.
> 2) the panels are large and that means greater expansion differences between
> the acrylic and the fibreglass - so the tape and sealant must be
> sufficiently flexible to allow for that movement and,
> 3) the size of the panel and shape of the cabin make placing the panel in
> the exactly correct position and with no opportunity to reposition it likely
> to be difficult. At this point I am pretty confident about the ability of
> the tape and sealant to handle the first two points but the third point is
> another matter and is the part I worry about most. But who knows?
>
> If the panels pop off for any reason I will let everyone know what went
> wrong.
>
>
>
> Graham
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22 Email
> List
> Sent: June-03-15 1:48 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
>
> Graham: i would consider a black neoprene gasket with small through bolts
> (or machine screws). I think it would look good and be less likely to leak
> or fall off. Down here in florida when adhesive gets hot it just melts and
> lets go. Just MHO. :-) Bob (palatka)
>>> On Jun 3, 2015, at 12:31 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>
>> Mary Lou:
>>
>> I will paint the inside of the acrylic panel everywhere except where
>> the openings will be. I intend to do this by removing the protective
>> paper everywhere except the port opening, then paint the panel and
>> finally remove the paper over the opening once the panel is installed.
>> In the picture I provided with the panels painted the paper covering
>> is still over the port area so it looks solid. You can't see the paper
>> covering in the picture. I could remove the paper before I install the
>> panel but it seems sensible to leave that area protected from
>> scratches and any sealant that might get smeared on it during
> installation.
>>
>> I have attached a picture showing the plywood template, for the panel,
>> the Formica template (white) for the opening and the two acrylic
>> panels with the protective paper still on and the opening areas marked.
>>
>> The acrylic panel is deep tinted so perhaps nothing will show through
>> but the tinting is not opaque and I suspect that in sunlight the grey
>> tape and white cabin will show. I don't have a spare piece of the
>> tinted acrylic to test this as I had the dealer cut the original panel
>> for me using a plywood template that I provided. I should have asked
>> for some scrap piece. I did have some clear acrylic that I used to
>> test painting and the cutting and removal of the paper. I have
>> attached a picture of the clear acrylic, partially painted and with
>> the opening protective paper pealed back on both sides. That might make
> what I am describing a litter easier to follow.
>>
>> I have attached a picture of the boat with the lexan windows that I
>> attached back in 1995. The picture was taken 20 years later when the
>> paint had pealed and you can see the cabin and peeling paint under
>> through the Lexan. Hence my obsession with using the right paint.
>>
>> For more about my paint selection I have attached a picture of panels
>> of Lexan coated with various paints along with observational comments.
>> I think it demonstrates fairly well why the barbeque paint seemed
>> superior for this task.
>>
>> I hope that helps.
>>
>> Graham
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22
>> Email List
>> Sent: June-02-15 11:51 AM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
>>
>> Nice write up Graham but I must be missing a sentence or an email or
>> something.
>>
>> If you are going to have Lexan windows, why paint them? I read the
>> part about "to make sure that the grey tape and white sides of the
>> cabin did not show through" but if you are painting the whole window why
> use Lexan at all?
>> Or can you still see out through the paint? do the windows let light in?
>>
>> I'm confused.
>>
>> Mary Lou
>> 1991 R22 Fretless
>> (recycled 1998)
>> still on the hard
>> but just about ready
>> to splash for the season
>> in Rock Hall, MD
>>
>>
>>
>> At 11:16 AM 6/2/2015, you wrote:
>>> For those who are interested in replacing cabin ports with acrylic
>>> panels, I thought I would bring you up to date on my highly
>>> scientific experiments using the method of attaching windows without
>>> using any hardware.
>>>
>>> My experiments were intended to demonstrate for me the strength of a
>>> joint using Dow Corning silicone # 795 and 3M brand tape VHB 4991 and
>>> the paint I intended to use to coat the inside of the acrylic panel.
>>>
>>> First, I joined some pieces of Lexan I had using the tape and the
>>> sealant and let it sit for 48 hours for the sealant to cure. At 48
>>> hours the sealant is about 90% cured but it continues to cure for 72
>>> hours. I couldn't wait that long. I attached a small piece of lexan
>>> (about 1.5" x 3") to a larger piece at a corner. I messed up the
>>> sealant with the result that I got some on top of the tape - which
>>> seems like a distinct possibility when I do the large panels so I was
>>> curious to see what effect that had. By leaving the smaller piece
>>> extending beyond the larger piece I had a tab that I could use to
>>> peal the pieces apart. I have attached a picture of what I call the
>>> "flex test".
>>>
>>> By holding the main piece down and lifting up on the tab I was able
>>> to bend the panels far beyond any curvature on the cabin side of the
>>> boat without any sign of the joint letting g. Also. the joint had
>>> enough flex that the panels could move past each other slightly to
>>> allow for a nice even bend. When I bent the joint to the maximum the
>>> lexan broke (see photo) before any sign that the joint was weakening.
>>> Lexan is very flexible and strong so that seemed to me to be a good
>>> sign although I should note that the Lexan was only 3/16"
>>> thick. I figure that if I can't break the join even on small pieces
>>> without destroying the Lexan, that has to be a very strong and
>>> flexible
>> joint.
>>>
>>> As an aside, the sealant has a useful life of one year. When I
>>> ordered mine it was already 8 months old and expired in March 2015.
>>> I called 3M last fall to see if there was any way to extend the life
>>> of the material. The technical support person told me to seal it up
>>> in plastic and put it in my freezer - which I did. He then told me to
>>> test it before using it by laying out a bead and letting it sit for 3
> hours.
>>> If it skinned over, it was good but if it stayed wet it will never
>>> cure
>>> - even though it looks fine coming out of the tube.
>>> I Had thought that old material would harden in the tube so that was
>>> potentially very useful to know. I have read online where others
>>> complained that this sealant never cured and I expect they were using
>>> material that was too old. In my case it appears the freezing worked
>>> as the sealant cured up nicely.
>>>
>>> Although the acrylic panels I am using are dark tinted, I wanted to
>>> make sure that the grey tape and white sides of the cabin did not
>>> show through so I needed to find a suitable paint to coat the inside.
>>> I wanted something that would adhere tenaciously to acrylic so that
>>> in turn the tape and sealant would adhere to the paint. I also wanted
>>> something that would apply by spray to give a perfectly even coat and
>>> preferably was fast drying. Articles I read advised using engine
>>> exhaust paint. The particular types suggested were not available
>>> locally and a ridiculous price to order by mail across the Canada/US
>>> border. Also I noticed that application instructions for similar
>>> paints available locally specified that it dries easily but does not
>>> cure until it is brought up to a high heat. That , of course , is not
>>> going to happen with acrylic so I was left wondering how it would
>>> work in an uncured state.
>>>
>>> I experimented with a number of paints - especially paints that are
>>> intended for plastic. The first time I did this in 1995 I used some
>>> sort of enamel that subsequently pealed of even though it was between
>>> the Lexan and the cabin side. It was thick, soft and had poor
>>> adhesion with Lexan. So I wanted something better than that. I
>>> noticed that the paints I was testing went on thick and took a long
>>> time to dry. They also scratched off too easily for my liking. I then
>>> tried some barbeque paint that I had. The paint is intended for high
>>> heat applications but had a maximum temperature of 600 degrees
>>> - which is much lower than the exhaust paint but still much higher
>>> than anything the boat will ever face before I am jumping overboard
>>> and it does not require heat to cure. It also sprays on beautifully
>>> in thin coats, dries to touch in a few minutes - no dust problems -
>>> and can be recoated several time within an hour. That meant that I
>>> could apply multiple thin and even coats. It give!
>>> s a satin finish rather than high gloss which I thought might make a
>>> better surface for the tape to adhere to. I first painted pieces of
>>> Lexan and clear acrylic and let it sit for about 3 months to see if
>>> there was any indication of incompatibility between the paint and
>>> the plastic. There was no sign of incompatibility that I could see.
>>>
>>> I tested the adhesion of the paint by trying to scratch it off soon
>>> after application and after several months and by applying a variety
>>> of tapes - duct tape and packing tape, house wrap tape etc, - and
>>> then peal it back both while the paint was fresh and after the tape
>>> had been in place for several months. As the flex test shows I also
>>> tried adhesion with the double-sided tape and, as noted, the lexan
>>> broke before the seal showed any sign of letting go. I also applied
>>> sealant, let it cure , and tried to remove it by pealing it back.
>>> The "paint test" is shown in an attached picture. It shows packing
>>> tape that had been left in place for several months. The tape was
>>> firmly attached but came off cleanly leaving the paint firmly
>>> attached to the Lexan. Scratching the paint with a sharp object left
>>> a scratch, of course, but did not remove any of the surrounding
>>> paint. So I think this is a good paint for this application.
>>>
>>> To prepare the windows, I cut the acrylic panels from a 1/8" plywood
>>> template, routed a slight bevel on the outside edges, laid out where
>>> the opening in the cabin were, made a template for consistent
>>> openings made out of Formica (which works well because it is thin and
>>> hard) and then cut the protective paper around what will be the
>>> openings using the template and exacto knife. I then removed all the
>>> protective covering except where the openings will be and painted the
>>> pieces with four thin coats of barbeque paint. I have attached a
>>> photo of the painted pieces.
>>>
>>> After the acrylic is attached to the boat I will remove the masking
>>> tape on the outside of the acrylic panes, the tape on the cabin sides
>>> and remove the protective paper from the outside of the panels and
>>> the inside of the open part. I tested whether I would be able to
>>> peel off the inside sections once it had been painted over especially
>>> given that it will be difficult to raise an edge once the panels are
>>> installed. I found that if I apply a strip of packing tape to the
>>> covering paper leaving the end folded over so I can grab it, when I
>>> peal it back the tape holds sufficiently to raise the protective
>>> paper cleanly avoiding the need to scratch up an edge.
>>> Hopefully that works in the real life situation. I would hate to have
>>> acrylic panels permanently attached with paper coving the opening
>>> that I can't remove.
>>>
>>> So I have chosen all the materials and tested them as best I can for
>>> suitability. I have also worked out a temporary clamping system to
>>> hold the panels in place while the tape and sealant cure. That might
>>> be unnecessary but given the curve of the cabin I don't want to take
>>> a chance on that part. I have masked the boat around the edge of the
>>> acrylic and sanded the paint on the cabin side so that is flat ,
>>> smooth but dulled (220 grit). Now all that is left is to attach the
>>> actual panels and frankly that is what worries me most. While online
>>> instructions suggest applying the tape and sealant to the panel and
>>> then apply the panel to the boat, my thinking is that because the
>>> cabin side is a compound curve I would be better to apply the tape
>>> and sealant to the cabin and then press the panel into place.
>>>
>>> Time matters. I don't have forever to apply the sealant and remove
>>> the tape cover before pressing the panel on and worse still, I only
>>> get one chance to get the panel in the exact location. There is
>>> really no room for error. I have "rehearsed" placing the panel with
>>> my wife but that was without any of the tape or sealant. The cabin
>>> side has a moulded in edge at both the bottom and the aft end that
>>> are very helpful guides but one still need to make sure from the
>>> moment of first touch that everything is aligned perfectly so that
>>> the rest will wrap into place exactly where it is supposed to be. My
>>> hope is that I can rest the bottom edge and aft corner against the
>>> little raised edge first and then wrap the piece up into place at the
> top.
>>>
>>> If anyone has any clever ideas about how I could make the process
>>> idiot proof I would be forever grateful. The idea of having to use a
>>> chisel and grinder to remove the misaligned panels has no appeal to
>>> me at this juncture. I think I will need a very good shot of Rummy's
>>> Mont Gay medicine to calm my nerves first.
>>>
>>>
>>> Graham
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>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>
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>>> archives go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
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