[Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
The Rhodes 22 Email List
rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Sun Jun 7 12:47:16 EDT 2015
Graham:
Looks incredible! I am sure this post will be referenced by many on the list for years to come. Keep us posted on the performance of the materials.
Bob (palatka)
> On Jun 4, 2015, at 10:44 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>
> Bob:
>
> I hope you are wrong too but my backup plan, should the tape not hold, is to
> add screws right through the tape into the cabin side. In that case I am no
> worse of having used the tape as it makes an excellent gasket that should
> seal the screw hole and still has serious adhesive qualities while leaving a
> space for the sealant. At least now I have a better idea than my first time
> doing this about how to use the screws. I filled the space between the liner
> and the cabin outer skin with epoxy coated plywood so I will have a very
> solid core to screw into. I will drill the hole through the fibreglass and
> acrylic larger than the screw shank to allow for expansion and let the
> plywood hold the screw. But I am hoping that is not necessary.
>
> The join for the pieces that I stuck together with the tape in my highly
> scientific experiments will not come apart without breaking the Lexan I was
> using. The lifting force I applied to separate the pieces was far greater
> than the force generated by the spring back of the bent panels and the curve
> the join was subjected to was way beyond the curve that the acrylic will
> have to take when applied to the boat. Of course I was not able to duplicate
> the effects of sun and flex over the years. I have read everything I could
> find on the tape so I feel encouraged by that but I won't know for certain
> until I try.
>
> I was using lexan for my experiments as I had the scraps available but for
> the new windows I am using acrylic (Plexiglas) which, according to the
> supplier does not have the limitations that you mention in terms of an
> outside and inside. I plan to cover the edges with the sealant anyway.
>
> Accurate placement of the window panels is still my biggest worry.
>
> Graham
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22 Email
> List
> Sent: June-04-15 4:17 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
>
> Graham: I too like your approach and applaud your meticulous efforts. If
> we are placing bets i place mine that the double sided adhesive will fail
> miserably.
> I Hope i am wrong buddy!
>
> Bob (palatka)
>
>>> On Jun 3, 2015, at 4:42 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>
>> Bob:
>>
>> Thanks for the suggestion. Last time I did this I used screws and
>> would like to avoid using any hardware at all this time. The
>> difference in expansion between the lexan and the fibreglass resulted
>> in the lexan breaking around many of the screws - especially at the
>> ends of the Lexan panel. The only way to use hardware is to enlarge
>> the holes. Make sue the screws are dead centre, use screws with a
>> washer of screws with a broad head and be very particular about how
>> tight the screws are. They need to be tight enough to seal the joint,
>> especially with neoprene gasket that must be compressed to seal, but
>> loose enough to allow for expansion. No one can tell me how to
>> determine what that torque should be. Screws look stronger but in practice
> create as many problems as they solve.
>>
>> Many boats are manufactured today using the materials and process I
>> intend to use and without the use of any hardware. So the method is
>> not new and was certainly not invented by me. There is quite a bit on
>> the internet about it and some of the info and videos for the tape by
>> 3M are quite impressive. If the tape will hold glass panels in tall
>> buildings around the world or steel panels on trailers I doubt that
>> melting will be a problem. Besides, in Ontario we celebrate when the
>> ice melts. The silicone is not used primarily as the adhesive, the
>> tape does that, but it is used to seal the joint. It remains soft and
> flexible whether hot or cold.
>>
>> The special problems associated with using this hardware-free method
>> for attaching acrylic panels to the Rhodes are:
>> 1) that the cabin sides on the Rhodes are curved - particularly
>> lengthwise but also twist vertically. The spring-back of the panel
>> wants to pull the joint apart so the adhesive qualities of the tape
>> have to be sufficient to overcome this until the panel eventually sets in
> the shape of the cabin.
>> 2) the panels are large and that means greater expansion differences
>> between the acrylic and the fibreglass - so the tape and sealant must
>> be sufficiently flexible to allow for that movement and,
>> 3) the size of the panel and shape of the cabin make placing the panel
>> in the exactly correct position and with no opportunity to reposition
>> it likely to be difficult. At this point I am pretty confident about
>> the ability of the tape and sealant to handle the first two points but
>> the third point is another matter and is the part I worry about most. But
> who knows?
>>
>> If the panels pop off for any reason I will let everyone know what
>> went wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22
>> Email List
>> Sent: June-03-15 1:48 PM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
>>
>> Graham: i would consider a black neoprene gasket with small through
>> bolts (or machine screws). I think it would look good and be less
>> likely to leak or fall off. Down here in florida when adhesive gets
>> hot it just melts and lets go. Just MHO. :-) Bob (palatka)
>>>> On Jun 3, 2015, at 12:31 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mary Lou:
>>>
>>> I will paint the inside of the acrylic panel everywhere except where
>>> the openings will be. I intend to do this by removing the protective
>>> paper everywhere except the port opening, then paint the panel and
>>> finally remove the paper over the opening once the panel is installed.
>>> In the picture I provided with the panels painted the paper covering
>>> is still over the port area so it looks solid. You can't see the
>>> paper covering in the picture. I could remove the paper before I
>>> install the panel but it seems sensible to leave that area protected
>>> from scratches and any sealant that might get smeared on it during
>> installation.
>>>
>>> I have attached a picture showing the plywood template, for the
>>> panel, the Formica template (white) for the opening and the two
>>> acrylic panels with the protective paper still on and the opening areas
> marked.
>>>
>>> The acrylic panel is deep tinted so perhaps nothing will show through
>>> but the tinting is not opaque and I suspect that in sunlight the grey
>>> tape and white cabin will show. I don't have a spare piece of the
>>> tinted acrylic to test this as I had the dealer cut the original
>>> panel for me using a plywood template that I provided. I should have
>>> asked for some scrap piece. I did have some clear acrylic that I used
>>> to test painting and the cutting and removal of the paper. I have
>>> attached a picture of the clear acrylic, partially painted and with
>>> the opening protective paper pealed back on both sides. That might
>>> make
>> what I am describing a litter easier to follow.
>>>
>>> I have attached a picture of the boat with the lexan windows that I
>>> attached back in 1995. The picture was taken 20 years later when the
>>> paint had pealed and you can see the cabin and peeling paint under
>>> through the Lexan. Hence my obsession with using the right paint.
>>>
>>> For more about my paint selection I have attached a picture of panels
>>> of Lexan coated with various paints along with observational comments.
>>> I think it demonstrates fairly well why the barbeque paint seemed
>>> superior for this task.
>>>
>>> I hope that helps.
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes
>>> 22 Email List
>>> Sent: June-02-15 11:51 AM
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Window replacement update
>>>
>>> Nice write up Graham but I must be missing a sentence or an email or
>>> something.
>>>
>>> If you are going to have Lexan windows, why paint them? I read the
>>> part about "to make sure that the grey tape and white sides of the
>>> cabin did not show through" but if you are painting the whole window
>>> why
>> use Lexan at all?
>>> Or can you still see out through the paint? do the windows let light in?
>>>
>>> I'm confused.
>>>
>>> Mary Lou
>>> 1991 R22 Fretless
>>> (recycled 1998)
>>> still on the hard
>>> but just about ready
>>> to splash for the season
>>> in Rock Hall, MD
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 11:16 AM 6/2/2015, you wrote:
>>>> For those who are interested in replacing cabin ports with acrylic
>>>> panels, I thought I would bring you up to date on my highly
>>>> scientific experiments using the method of attaching windows without
>>>> using any hardware.
>>>>
>>>> My experiments were intended to demonstrate for me the strength of a
>>>> joint using Dow Corning silicone # 795 and 3M brand tape VHB 4991
>>>> and the paint I intended to use to coat the inside of the acrylic panel.
>>>>
>>>> First, I joined some pieces of Lexan I had using the tape and the
>>>> sealant and let it sit for 48 hours for the sealant to cure. At 48
>>>> hours the sealant is about 90% cured but it continues to cure for 72
>>>> hours. I couldn't wait that long. I attached a small piece of lexan
>>>> (about 1.5" x 3") to a larger piece at a corner. I messed up the
>>>> sealant with the result that I got some on top of the tape - which
>>>> seems like a distinct possibility when I do the large panels so I
>>>> was curious to see what effect that had. By leaving the smaller
>>>> piece extending beyond the larger piece I had a tab that I could use
>>>> to peal the pieces apart. I have attached a picture of what I call
>>>> the "flex test".
>>>>
>>>> By holding the main piece down and lifting up on the tab I was able
>>>> to bend the panels far beyond any curvature on the cabin side of the
>>>> boat without any sign of the joint letting g. Also. the joint had
>>>> enough flex that the panels could move past each other slightly to
>>>> allow for a nice even bend. When I bent the joint to the maximum the
>>>> lexan broke (see photo) before any sign that the joint was weakening.
>>>> Lexan is very flexible and strong so that seemed to me to be a good
>>>> sign although I should note that the Lexan was only 3/16"
>>>> thick. I figure that if I can't break the join even on small pieces
>>>> without destroying the Lexan, that has to be a very strong and
>>>> flexible
>>> joint.
>>>>
>>>> As an aside, the sealant has a useful life of one year. When I
>>>> ordered mine it was already 8 months old and expired in March 2015.
>>>> I called 3M last fall to see if there was any way to extend the life
>>>> of the material. The technical support person told me to seal it up
>>>> in plastic and put it in my freezer - which I did. He then told me
>>>> to test it before using it by laying out a bead and letting it sit
>>>> for 3
>> hours.
>>>> If it skinned over, it was good but if it stayed wet it will never
>>>> cure
>>>> - even though it looks fine coming out of the tube.
>>>> I Had thought that old material would harden in the tube so that was
>>>> potentially very useful to know. I have read online where others
>>>> complained that this sealant never cured and I expect they were
>>>> using material that was too old. In my case it appears the freezing
>>>> worked as the sealant cured up nicely.
>>>>
>>>> Although the acrylic panels I am using are dark tinted, I wanted to
>>>> make sure that the grey tape and white sides of the cabin did not
>>>> show through so I needed to find a suitable paint to coat the inside.
>>>> I wanted something that would adhere tenaciously to acrylic so that
>>>> in turn the tape and sealant would adhere to the paint. I also
>>>> wanted something that would apply by spray to give a perfectly even
>>>> coat and preferably was fast drying. Articles I read advised using
>>>> engine exhaust paint. The particular types suggested were not
>>>> available locally and a ridiculous price to order by mail across the
>>>> Canada/US border. Also I noticed that application instructions for
>>>> similar paints available locally specified that it dries easily but
>>>> does not cure until it is brought up to a high heat. That , of
>>>> course , is not going to happen with acrylic so I was left wondering
>>>> how it would work in an uncured state.
>>>>
>>>> I experimented with a number of paints - especially paints that are
>>>> intended for plastic. The first time I did this in 1995 I used some
>>>> sort of enamel that subsequently pealed of even though it was
>>>> between the Lexan and the cabin side. It was thick, soft and had
>>>> poor adhesion with Lexan. So I wanted something better than that. I
>>>> noticed that the paints I was testing went on thick and took a long
>>>> time to dry. They also scratched off too easily for my liking. I
>>>> then tried some barbeque paint that I had. The paint is intended for
>>>> high heat applications but had a maximum temperature of 600 degrees
>>>> - which is much lower than the exhaust paint but still much higher
>>>> than anything the boat will ever face before I am jumping overboard
>>>> and it does not require heat to cure. It also sprays on beautifully
>>>> in thin coats, dries to touch in a few minutes - no dust problems -
>>>> and can be recoated several time within an hour. That meant that I
>>>> could apply multiple thin and even coats. It give!
>>>> s a satin finish rather than high gloss which I thought might make
>>>> a better surface for the tape to adhere to. I first painted pieces
>>>> of Lexan and clear acrylic and let it sit for about 3 months to see
>>>> if there was any indication of incompatibility between the paint
>>>> and the plastic. There was no sign of incompatibility that I could see.
>>>>
>>>> I tested the adhesion of the paint by trying to scratch it off soon
>>>> after application and after several months and by applying a variety
>>>> of tapes - duct tape and packing tape, house wrap tape etc, - and
>>>> then peal it back both while the paint was fresh and after the tape
>>>> had been in place for several months. As the flex test shows I also
>>>> tried adhesion with the double-sided tape and, as noted, the lexan
>>>> broke before the seal showed any sign of letting go. I also applied
>>>> sealant, let it cure , and tried to remove it by pealing it back.
>>>> The "paint test" is shown in an attached picture. It shows packing
>>>> tape that had been left in place for several months. The tape was
>>>> firmly attached but came off cleanly leaving the paint firmly
>>>> attached to the Lexan. Scratching the paint with a sharp object left
>>>> a scratch, of course, but did not remove any of the surrounding
>>>> paint. So I think this is a good paint for this application.
>>>>
>>>> To prepare the windows, I cut the acrylic panels from a 1/8" plywood
>>>> template, routed a slight bevel on the outside edges, laid out where
>>>> the opening in the cabin were, made a template for consistent
>>>> openings made out of Formica (which works well because it is thin
>>>> and
>>>> hard) and then cut the protective paper around what will be the
>>>> openings using the template and exacto knife. I then removed all the
>>>> protective covering except where the openings will be and painted
>>>> the pieces with four thin coats of barbeque paint. I have attached a
>>>> photo of the painted pieces.
>>>>
>>>> After the acrylic is attached to the boat I will remove the masking
>>>> tape on the outside of the acrylic panes, the tape on the cabin
>>>> sides and remove the protective paper from the outside of the panels
>>>> and the inside of the open part. I tested whether I would be able
>>>> to peel off the inside sections once it had been painted over
>>>> especially given that it will be difficult to raise an edge once the
>>>> panels are installed. I found that if I apply a strip of packing
>>>> tape to the covering paper leaving the end folded over so I can grab
>>>> it, when I peal it back the tape holds sufficiently to raise the
>>>> protective paper cleanly avoiding the need to scratch up an edge.
>>>> Hopefully that works in the real life situation. I would hate to
>>>> have acrylic panels permanently attached with paper coving the
>>>> opening that I can't remove.
>>>>
>>>> So I have chosen all the materials and tested them as best I can for
>>>> suitability. I have also worked out a temporary clamping system to
>>>> hold the panels in place while the tape and sealant cure. That might
>>>> be unnecessary but given the curve of the cabin I don't want to take
>>>> a chance on that part. I have masked the boat around the edge of the
>>>> acrylic and sanded the paint on the cabin side so that is flat ,
>>>> smooth but dulled (220 grit). Now all that is left is to attach the
>>>> actual panels and frankly that is what worries me most. While online
>>>> instructions suggest applying the tape and sealant to the panel and
>>>> then apply the panel to the boat, my thinking is that because the
>>>> cabin side is a compound curve I would be better to apply the tape
>>>> and sealant to the cabin and then press the panel into place.
>>>>
>>>> Time matters. I don't have forever to apply the sealant and remove
>>>> the tape cover before pressing the panel on and worse still, I only
>>>> get one chance to get the panel in the exact location. There is
>>>> really no room for error. I have "rehearsed" placing the panel with
>>>> my wife but that was without any of the tape or sealant. The cabin
>>>> side has a moulded in edge at both the bottom and the aft end that
>>>> are very helpful guides but one still need to make sure from the
>>>> moment of first touch that everything is aligned perfectly so that
>>>> the rest will wrap into place exactly where it is supposed to be. My
>>>> hope is that I can rest the bottom edge and aft corner against the
>>>> little raised edge first and then wrap the piece up into place at
>>>> the
>> top.
>>>>
>>>> If anyone has any clever ideas about how I could make the process
>>>> idiot proof I would be forever grateful. The idea of having to use
>>>> a chisel and grinder to remove the misaligned panels has no appeal
>>>> to me at this juncture. I think I will need a very good shot of
>>>> Rummy's Mont Gay medicine to calm my nerves first.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Graham
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>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
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>>>
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>>> __________________________________________________
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>>
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>>
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>
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