[Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection

Mark Whipple mark at whipplefamily.com
Sat Sep 12 09:06:24 EDT 2020 

Tom,

I've always referred to the substance as "cutting oil" because back in the
day it was actually a petroleum product. I still have the container of
cutting oil that I bought when I owned a bike shop in the 1980's. These
days apparently it's no longer oil but some other liquid, so now it's
advertised as "cutting fluid."

Mark

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:13 PM Tom Van Heule <
tom.vanheule at intrinsicprograms.com> wrote:

> Mark,
> Maybe you can help with this old thought experiment I was posed to in
> college.
>
> Elaborate on the difference of a liquid and a fluid?
>
> :)
> Tvh
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 8:06 AM Mark Whipple <mark at whipplefamily.com> wrote:
>
> > A drill press allows you to keep a consistent angle and speed while
> > carefully controlling the downward pressure. There's also less of a
> > tendency for the drill bit to "walk," but I'd still use a punch to
> create a
> > set point for the drill bit. I'd also suggest using cutting oil (fluid)
> > when drilling any metal other than maybe aluminum or lead.
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/s?k=cutting+oil
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:42 AM Jesse Shumaker <
> > jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for the tips.  I may give the step bit a try.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 9:44 PM Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I like to use a step bit to gradually drill a larger hole in metal
> > > without
> > > > having to change bits.
> > > >
> > > > Graham Stewart
> > > > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > > > Kingston Ontario
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > Behalf
> > > > Of Peter Nyberg
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 8:59 PM
> > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
> > > >
> > > > Starting with smaller holes and gradually expanding to larger holes
> is
> > > the
> > > > approach I usually take.  I don’t know that it actually matters.
> > > >
> > > > Using a drill press may help to positions holes more accurately,
> other
> > > > than that, I haven’t noticed that it matters much over using a hand
> > > drill.
> > > >
> > > > —Peter
> > > >
> > > > > On Sep 10, 2020, at 6:48 PM, Jesse Shumaker <
> > > > jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I can confirm what Peter mentioned since I recently ordered mast
> > > > organizer
> > > > > model DH288
> > > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=19&familyName=Halyard+Organizer+Plates
> > > > >
> > > > > in
> > > > > preparation for fall projects.  I attached a photo of the one that
> I
> > > > > received in the mail.  Sorry for the poor lighting in the photo.
> It
> > > > occurs
> > > > > to me that I'll need to drill holes to fit the existing pattern on
> > the
> > > > > tabernacle.    It appears I may want to use a drill press and
> > > > progressively
> > > > > larger bits for that given the strength of the material described
> in
> > > > > Roger's earlier post in this thread.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jesse Shumaker
> > > > > S/V Zephyr
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:56 AM Peter Nyberg <
> > peter at sunnybeeches.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I avoided having to cut off the tab by mounting the organizer
> > > backwards,
> > > > >> with the tab on the forward side.  I don’t use the tab, but it’s
> not
> > > in
> > > > the
> > > > >> way there.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The halyard organizer, for those who might be interested, came
> from
> > > > Dwyer (
> > > > >> www.dwyermast.com).  I just took a look at their current
> selection
> > of
> > > > >> organizers, and none appear to have a tab with a hole for
> mounting a
> > > > block
> > > > >> at the centerline; only port and starboard.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Peter Nyberg
> > > > >> Coventry, CT
> > > > >> s/v Silverheels (1988/2016)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> On Sep 10, 2020, at 10:40 AM, ROGER PIHLAJA <
> roger_pihlaja at msn.com
> > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Graham,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I actually have a modified version of Peter Nyberg’s mast step
> > > > >> organizer.  I simply cut off the tab on the aft side so it
> wouldn’t
> > > > >> interfere with the pop top slider.  Unfortunately, the 300 series
> > > > stainless
> > > > >> alloys have a strong tendency to work harden when they are cold
> > > > worked.  It
> > > > >> takes a good metal cutting band saw with plenty of coolant to cut
> > thru
> > > > the
> > > > >> work hardened bent tab.  Then, a bench grinder and fine emory
> cloth
> > > will
> > > > >> clean up the cut and round off the sharp edges.  Having the anchor
> > > > points
> > > > >> on the port, starboard, and front sides of the mast is very handy.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Sent from my iPhone
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> On Sep 10, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Graham Stewart <
> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
> > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Roger: Thanks for the thorough response. It all makes sense. I
> > > wonder
> > > > >> why I didn't have that ring installed on my boat. A second option
> I
> > am
> > > > >> considering is to install a mast step organizer such as the one
> that
> > > > Peter
> > > > >> Nyberg installed on his boat. I don't have a Cunningham on my
> boat.
> > I
> > > > would
> > > > >> be interested in seeing what others have installed if anyone has
> > > > pictures.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Graham Stewart
> > > > >>>> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > > > >>>> Kingston Ontario
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> > On
> > > > >> Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> > > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 8:15 AM
> > > > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Graham,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Although, at first glance, the present pop top slider design may
> > > look
> > > > >> sort of crude, it’s actually pretty elegant.  Remember, there are
> 2
> > > > pieces
> > > > >> of tackle that have their lower anchor points on the pop top
> slider,
> > > the
> > > > >> boom vang and the Cunningham.  The snap shackle for the Cunningham
> > > > actually
> > > > >> attaches to the eye strap and the snap shackle for the boom vang
> > > > actually
> > > > >> attaches to the ring.  This way, the force from the Cunningham,
> > which
> > > is
> > > > >> vertical directly up the mast, is kept as close as possible to the
> > > mast.
> > > > >> The force from the Cunningham on the two machine screws attaching
> > the
> > > > eye
> > > > >> strap to the pop top slider is almost entirely shear, which is the
> > > most
> > > > >> mechanically efficient way to load a threaded connection.  In
> > > addition,
> > > > by
> > > > >> attaching the Cunningham to the eye strap vs. the ring, the clam
> > cleat
> > > > on
> > > > >> the block automatically faces aft, thus facilitating ease of use
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > >> cockpit.  Similarly, attaching the snap shackle for the boom vang
> > onto
> > > > the
> > > > >> ring vs. the eye strap, automatically positions the clam cleat
> > > downward
> > > > and
> > > > >> moves it aft slightly, both of which help prevent the two pieces
> of
> > > > tackle
> > > > >> from getting fouled up on each other and makes the boom vang
> easier
> > to
> > > > use
> > > > >> from the cockpit.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> If the ring were simply welded onto the pop top slider, I think
> it
> > > > >> might interfere with the pop top raising and lowering process.
> i.e.
> > > > When
> > > > >> the pop top is raised, the 1st step is to raise the aft end of the
> > pop
> > > > top
> > > > >> up on its support arms until the spring loaded detents lock into
> > > > position.
> > > > >> In this position, the front corner of the pop top might interfere
> > > with a
> > > > >> fixed welded ring on the pop top slider.  The present design, with
> > its
> > > > eye
> > > > >> strap and ring, automatically folds down out of the way.  Even
> with
> > > the
> > > > >> present pop top slider design, it’s not the eye strap and ring
> > that’s
> > > in
> > > > >> the way if you attempt to raise the pop top with the boom vang and
> > > > >> Cunningham in place, it’s the two pieces of tackle and all the
> > > > associated
> > > > >> line.  Similarly, it’s not the eye strap and ring that tend to
> chip
> > up
> > > > the
> > > > >> front corner of the pop top, it’s the lower blocks and snap
> shackles
> > > on
> > > > the
> > > > >> Cunningham and boom vang that do the damage when they start
> flopping
> > > > >> around.  A welded fixed ring wouldn’t change that.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Finally, if the ring is welded onto the pop top slider; then,
> that
> > > > will
> > > > >> be a critical weld.  There will be a lot of force on it.  I hope
> you
> > > > are,
> > > > >> or have access to, a certified welder.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Even after all these years, it’s fun to critically exam Stan’s
> > ideas
> > > > >> and designs that were so multifunctional.  He was way ahead of us
> > all
> > > in
> > > > >> anticipating and solving problems.  My boat is in its 44th season
> > and
> > > > it’s
> > > > >> been sailed hard.  The pop top slider hasn’t given a bit of
> trouble.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
> > for
> > > > >> Windows 10
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 10:32 PM
> > > > >>>> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'<mailto:
> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Roger:
> > > > >>>> I am thinking that it might be worth getting the ring welded to
> > the
> > > > >> plate at about a 30 degree an angle rather than having it flop
> > around
> > > in
> > > > >> the strap eye. Do you see a reason why that might not work?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Graham Stewart
> > > > >>>> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> > On
> > > > >> Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> > > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 5:24 PM
> > > > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Graham,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> The slider is held in its various positions by a hair pin clip
> > that
> > > > >> inserts thru holes drilled thru the mast track.  I always keep the
> > > hair
> > > > pin
> > > > >> clip in place to hold the slider down no matter whether I have
> > tension
> > > > on
> > > > >> the boom vang &/or Cunningham or not.  S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> came
> > > > rigged
> > > > >> with the boom vang and Cunningham downhaul when I purchased her.
> I
> > > > don’t
> > > > >> know if a previous owner drilled and tapped the pop top slider for
> > the
> > > > eye
> > > > >> strap.  Or, maybe back in 1976, Stan might have offered a
> > “performance
> > > > >> mainsail package” that included a boom vang and Cunningham.  There
> > is
> > > > also
> > > > >> an eye strap drilled and tapped into the underside of the boom for
> > the
> > > > top
> > > > >> anchor point on the boom vang.  It all looks pretty professional
> if
> > > they
> > > > >> are homemade and they both serve their mainsail shaping functions
> > > > >> perfectly.  Both the boom vang and Cunningham must be removed to
> > raise
> > > > the
> > > > >> pop top.  With snap shackles, installing and removing them is not
> a
> > > big
> > > > >> deal.  A word of caution, all this hardware on the leading edge of
> > the
> > > > pop
> > > > >> top can chip the fiberglass if they get to banging around.  I
> solved
> > > > this
> > > > >> problem by epoxying 10 gage SS sheet metal to the sides and the
> top
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > >> pop top near the pointy end where it attaches to the pop top
> slider.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> On Sep 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Graham Stewart <
> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Roger:
> > > > >>>>> My 76 has the same bracket except that it does not have the
> ring
> > or
> > > > eye
> > > > >>>>> strap. I wonder if that was added by a previous owner. Do you
> > have
> > > a
> > > > >> track
> > > > >>>>> stop to keep the pop top down when the boom vang or Cunningham
> is
> > > in
> > > > >> use? If
> > > > >>>>> it works well I might copy that.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Graham Stewart
> > > > >>>>> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > > > >>>>> Kingston Ontario
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>>> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> ]
> > On
> > > > >> Behalf Of
> > > > >>>>> ROGER PIHLAJA
> > > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 1:32 PM
> > > > >>>>> To: John Carlson; The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Hi All,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I've attached a picture of the pop top slider connection on my
> > > older
> > > > >> (1976)
> > > > >>>>> standard (i.e. non IMF) mainsail Rhodes 22.  As you can see,
> > it's a
> > > > >> simple
> > > > >>>>> weldment.  The bent sheet metal slides up and down in the mast
> > > slot.
> > > > >> The
> > > > >>>>> bolt attaches to a pair of brackets on the leading edge of the
> > pop
> > > > >> top.  The
> > > > >>>>> ring is the lower anchor point for the boom vang and Cunningham
> > > > >> downhaul
> > > > >>>>> tackle.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> [cid:image003.jpg at 01D686AD.A5678F20]
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
> > for
> > > > >> Windows
> > > > >>>>> 10
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> From: John Carlson via Rhodes22-list<mailto:
> > > > rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 10:36 AM
> > > > >>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >
> > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop top connection
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> The front of mine is quite rough as well. I have a picture, but
> > it
> > > > >> looks a
> > > > >>>>> lot like yours (and I use a Mac).
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> --
> > > > >>>>> John.
> > > > >>>>> 2004/12 Rhodes 22
> > > > >>>>> Waco, TX
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Sep 9, 2020, at 9:26 AM, Mark Whipple <
> > > mark at whipplefamily.com
> > > > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> New question: I'm looking at the piece that connects my
> pop-top
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > >>>>>> mast, and it looks unfinished on the forward end, like it may
> > have
> > > > >> been
> > > > >>>>>> broken at some point. I realize there are many small
> differences
> > > > >> between
> > > > >>>>>> our boats but do yours look like this? (Sorry for the blue
> tape
> > in
> > > > >> the way
> > > > >>>>>> - I removed it but then forgot to take another picture.)
> > > > >>>>>> Mark
> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>> Boston, MA
> > > > >>>>>> 2000 R22 *Luna Mia*
> > > > >>>>>> 1987 Nimble 30 *For Sale*
> > > > >>>>>> 1982 Com-Pac 16 *For Sale*
> > > > >>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
> > > > >>>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > >>>>>> Name: luna mia popup connection.jpg
> > > > >>>>>> Type: image/jpeg
> > > > >>>>>> Size: 24318 bytes
> > > > >>>>>> Desc: not available
> > > > >>>>>> URL:
> > > > >>>>> <
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20200909/b8bc1259/a
> > > > >>>>> ttachment.jpg>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> -------------- next part --------------
> > > > >>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > >>>>> Name: 5D89362A40A344E489D4186D51FBAF96.jpg
> > > > >>>>> Type: image/jpeg
> > > > >>>>> Size: 153447 bytes
> > > > >>>>> Desc: 5D89362A40A344E489D4186D51FBAF96.jpg
> > > > >>>>> URL:
> > > > >>>>> <
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20200909/b8512c08/a
> > > > >>>>> ttachment.jpg>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > > Name: DH288.JPG
> > > > > Type: image/jpeg
> > > > > Size: 73235 bytes
> > > > > Desc: not available
> > > > > URL: <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20200910/70648fa1/attachment.jpe
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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