[Rhodes22-list] Unbolted track

[mweisner]

-------- Original message --------From: Cary Tolbert <retiredtoby at gmail.com> Date: 7/27/21  11:33 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Unbolted track Mike, 316 s/s is very difficult to drill. What tools do you have to cut anddrill 1/4 inch of the 316 stainless steel?Just curious. This info could give some of us hope.CaryS/V Whisper '86On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:25 AM mweisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:> I typically use 1/4" thick 316 stainless steel sheets. The size varies> depending on the load from 1" x 2" strips for small hardware to 12" x 12"> sheet stock ($130 at McMaster) for the mast crane cleat. One easily found> source is McMaster Carr (> https://www.mcmaster.com/metals/stainless-steel/shape~sheet-and-bar/corrosion-resistant-316-stainless-steel-6/thickness~1-4/).> An image of the link is attached at the end of the email.> Mike> s/v Wind Lass ('91)> Nissequogue River, NYI'd rather be sailing ⛵Please consider the> environment before printing this email.> -------- Original message --------From: Jesse Shumaker <> jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> Date: 7/26/21  11:28 AM  (GMT-05:00) To:> The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> Subject: Re:> [Rhodes22-list] Unbolted track Just curious for those that have added> backing plates in certain scenarios,what material have you used for> this?I've used steel sheet metal from Home Depot that I cut to size with> anangle grinder and painted with Rustoleum primer and paint> beforeinstallation.  I didn't find stainless steel sheet metal at the> hardwarestore or home improvement stores.  I don't recall the> gauge/thickness thatI used.  I also used fender washers on top of the> backing plates.  I'veadded backing plates for the bow cleat, two chocks> that I installed towardsthe bow, a flip up midship cleat that I installed,> as well as the throughbolts for the anchor roller mount... so far so> good.Jesse ShumakerS/V ZephyrOn Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 9:48 AM Michael D.> Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>wrote:> I agree with Stan.>> The track was> designed to support the stresses of the jib car. The forces> experienced in> such use are directed more fore and aft, for which the track> is secured> properly. A track mounted cleat, whether for spring line or> docking,> exerts significant forces upward and side to side, for which the> track is> not well suited. Such applications will likely result in damage to> the> track, as you have found. Lastly, the track may fail if significant> force> is applied, simply due to its age, which is not a necessarily a> design> flaw.>> By the way, I use the foredeck mounted docking cleat as part of my> mast> crane system. I have through bolted and spread the transmitted forces> using> a backing plate to accommodate the nearly 500 lbs of vertical force> that is> applied by the winch at the start and end of the mast erection> process.> This is quite different than the original purpose of the deck> mounted> docking cleat which was designed to sustain mostly lateral> (horizontal)> forces when docked or moored.>> Please do not assume that any> fixture will withstand forces outside of its> design parameters and> remember to account for changes due to age of the> device and boat.>> Mike>> s/v Wind Lass ('91)> Nissequogue River, NY>> -----Original Message----->> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of>> THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 10:28 AM> To:> Lewin <lewin at mail.com>> Cc: stan <stan at generalboats.com>; The Rhodes 22> Email List <> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]> Unbolted track>> It was being used as a spring line when it broke track>> >> On Jul 26, 2021, at 9:50 AM, Lewin <lewin at mail.com> wrote:> >> > If a> track mounted cleat were only used for bow and stern spring lines> would it> be less likely to fail?> >> > ------------------> > Bernard> >> >> > On Jul> 25, 2021, at 9:27 PM, THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list <>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:> >> > I only posted because there> were previous posts about mounting cleats> on the track. I have no> complaints about the boat and enjoy everything> about it.  I know now, the> hard way, not to mount cleats on the tracks and> wanted to make others> aware. I will repair and continue on enjoying> everything about the boat.> No disrespect was intended, Stan, and I will> continue to appreciate> everything you did to create this incredible boat.> >> >> On Jul 25, 2021,> at 6:47 PM, stan <stan at generalboats.com> wrote:> >>> >> > >> My O my, I> am flattered when those Rhodies who praise the Rhodes> engineering get> pleasure out of finding what they think is a flaw.> >>> >> In the Rhodes 50> plus years, I have not heard of a single genoa track> pull off - when used> for what it was designed to do; carry the load of the> giant 175 genoa> sheets. That load is carried by a great number of machine> screws; more> than sufficient to carry the shear loading placed on them.  Of> course Todd> did not mean they should be bolted on to the gel coat.  But I> think his> comment that "I've found more than a few questionable things> which needed> to be properly "re"engineered." is gratuitously disingenuous.> Personally> my over the hill engineering mind would think it silly to mount> docking> cleats to genoa tracks. Even if those tracks had long enough> machine screw> passing all the way through the outerside of the hull and had> fender> washers and lock nuts on them, those shiftable docking cleats would>> distort the thin edges of the genoa tracks making the genoa cars a chore> or> even impossible to adjust.> >> If you want to put on docking cleats,> mount them to the boat proper.> You want a spring line cleat, don't use it> for a docking cleat.  You want a> boat engineered for docking? Have I got a> boat to sell you. No hands, no> straps, just three little docking eyes. See> attachment. Guaranteed to hold> for any winds. Just stop putting moving> docking cleats where they are not> invited to go.> >>> >> stan> >>> >>>> >>>> On 7/25/21 12:00 PM, THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list wrote:> >>> I> found that there are no nuts or nut plates, just curious if anyone> else> had a similar situation.> >>>> >>>>> On Jul 25, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Todd> Tavares <tavares0947 at gmail.com>> wrote:> >>>>>> >>>>> Those are machine> screws. There should be nuts underneath or nut> >>>>> plates embedded in> the rail under the gelcoat.> >>>>>> >>>>> But it wouldn't surprise me if> the machine screws were just> >>>>> threaded into wood or even threaded> into epoxy. I've found more> >>>>> than a few questionable things which> needed to be properly> "re"engineered.> >>>>> Let us know what you find> once you dig into this problem.> >>>>>> >>>>> Todd T.> >>>>>> >>>>>> On> Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 11:10 AM Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>>> wrote:> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Thomas,> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Would you prefer gelcoat> damage?> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Never mount a dockline holding cleat without a> backing plate.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Regards,> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Rick Lange> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:02 AM THOMAS POLISE via> Rhodes22-list> >>>>>> < rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone else notice that the jib track is just put in without> >>>>>>> bolts.  I added cleat to track which was yanked out in high winds.> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was>> >>>>>> scrubbed...> >>>>>> Name: IMG_0041.jpg> >>>>>> Type: image/jpeg>> >>>>>> Size: 763976 bytes> >>>>>> Desc: not available> >>>>>> URL: <>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20210725/c> >>>>>> 07b3fde/attachment.jpg> >>> .> >>> >> <6221802_20170501145922633_1_XLARGE> 3.jpg>> >>>> -------------- next part --------------> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...> Name: Screenshot_20210727-111606_Chrome.jpg> Type: image/jpeg> Size: 339078 bytes> Desc: not available> URL: <> http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20210727/ad515376/attachment.jpg> >>