[Rhodes22-list] Unbolted track

Tue Jul 27 12:33:44 EDT 2021

Would not AL plate work?  Just a little thicker. Always see masts with SS
and AL together so metals seem ok together. Alot simpler to work with. Am I
incorrect?

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 11:00 AM mweisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:

> I use SHARP cobalt (Kobalt) bits in a drill press turning 1600 RPM, max,
> WITH cutting oil. Go slowly, keep the drill at right angles to the material
> and peck regularly (withdraw to clean flutes). If you really have trouble
> with 316, buy 303/304 stainless and save $$ on the material and drills (use
> HSS bits). 316 is recommended in marine environments for corrosion
> resistance but if it is typically inside the cabin or lazarette it will
> help.Mike
> s/v Wind Lass ('91)
> Nissequogue River, NYI'd rather be sailing ⛵
> -------- Original message --------From: Cary Tolbert <
> retiredtoby at gmail.com> Date: 7/27/21  11:33 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: The
> Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> Subject: Re:
> [Rhodes22-list] Unbolted track Mike, 316 s/s is very difficult to drill.
> What tools do you have to cut anddrill 1/4 inch of the 316 stainless
> steel?Just curious. This info could give some of us hope.CaryS/V Whisper
> '86On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:25 AM mweisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
> wrote:> I typically use 1/4" thick 316 stainless steel sheets. The size
> varies> depending on the load from 1" x 2" strips for small hardware to 12"
> x 12"> sheet stock ($130 at McMaster) for the mast crane cleat. One easily
> found> source is McMaster Carr (>
> https://www.mcmaster.com/metals/stainless-steel/shape~sheet-and-bar/corrosion-resistant-316-stainless-steel-6/thickness~1-4/).>
> An image of the link is attached at the end of the email.> Mike> s/v Wind
> Lass ('91)> Nissequogue River, NYI'd rather be sailing ⛵Please consider
> the> environment before printing this email.> -------- Original message
> --------From: Jesse Shumaker <> jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> Date:
> 7/26/21  11:28 AM  (GMT-05:00) To:> The Rhodes 22 Email List <
> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> Subject: Re:> [Rhodes22-list] Unbolted track
> Just curious for those that have added> backing plates in certain
> scenarios,what material have you used for> this?I've used steel sheet metal
> from Home Depot that I cut to size with> anangle grinder and painted with
> Rustoleum primer and paint> beforeinstallation.  I didn't find stainless
> steel sheet metal at the> hardwarestore or home improvement stores.  I
> don't recall the> gauge/thickness thatI used.  I also used fender washers
> on top of the> backing plates.  I'veadded backing plates for the bow cleat,
> two chocks> that I installed towardsthe bow, a flip up midship cleat that I
> installed,> as well as the throughbolts for the anchor roller mount... so
> far so> good.Jesse ShumakerS/V ZephyrOn Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 9:48 AM
> Michael D.> Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>wrote:> I agree with Stan.>> The
> track was> designed to support the stresses of the jib car. The forces>
> experienced in> such use are directed more fore and aft, for which the
> track> is secured> properly. A track mounted cleat, whether for spring line
> or> docking,> exerts significant forces upward and side to side, for which
> the> track is> not well suited. Such applications will likely result in
> damage to> the> track, as you have found. Lastly, the track may fail if
> significant> force> is applied, simply due to its age, which is not a
> necessarily a> design> flaw.>> By the way, I use the foredeck mounted
> docking cleat as part of my> mast> crane system. I have through bolted and
> spread the transmitted forces> using> a backing plate to accommodate the
> nearly 500 lbs of vertical force> that is> applied by the winch at the
> start and end of the mast erection> process.> This is quite different than
> the original purpose of the deck> mounted> docking cleat which was designed
> to sustain mostly lateral> (horizontal)> forces when docked or moored.>>
> Please do not assume that any> fixture will withstand forces outside of
> its> design parameters and> remember to account for changes due to age of
> the> device and boat.>> Mike>> s/v Wind Lass ('91)> Nissequogue River, NY>>
> -----Original Message----->> From: Rhodes22-list <
> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of>> THOMAS POLISE via
> Rhodes22-list> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 10:28 AM> To:> Lewin <
> lewin at mail.com>> Cc: stan <stan at generalboats.com>; The Rhodes 22> Email
> List <> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]>
> Unbolted track>> It was being used as a spring line when it broke track>>
> >> On Jul 26, 2021, at 9:50 AM, Lewin <lewin at mail.com> wrote:> >> > If
> a> track mounted cleat were only used for bow and stern spring lines> would
> it> be less likely to fail?> >> > ------------------> > Bernard> >> >> > On
> Jul> 25, 2021, at 9:27 PM, THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list <>>
> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:> >> > I only posted because there>
> were previous posts about mounting cleats> on the track. I have no>
> complaints about the boat and enjoy everything> about it.  I know now, the>
> hard way, not to mount cleats on the tracks and> wanted to make others>
> aware. I will repair and continue on enjoying> everything about the boat.>
> No disrespect was intended, Stan, and I will> continue to appreciate>
> everything you did to create this incredible boat.> >> >> On Jul 25, 2021,>
> at 6:47 PM, stan <stan at generalboats.com> wrote:> >>> >> > >> My O my, I>
> am flattered when those Rhodies who praise the Rhodes> engineering get>
> pleasure out of finding what they think is a flaw.> >>> >> In the Rhodes
> 50> plus years, I have not heard of a single genoa track> pull off - when
> used> for what it was designed to do; carry the load of the> giant 175
> genoa> sheets. That load is carried by a great number of machine> screws;
> more> than sufficient to carry the shear loading placed on them.  Of>
> course Todd> did not mean they should be bolted on to the gel coat.  But I>
> think his> comment that "I've found more than a few questionable things>
> which needed> to be properly "re"engineered." is gratuitously
> disingenuous.> Personally> my over the hill engineering mind would think it
> silly to mount> docking> cleats to genoa tracks. Even if those tracks had
> long enough> machine screw> passing all the way through the outerside of
> the hull and had> fender> washers and lock nuts on them, those shiftable
> docking cleats would>> distort the thin edges of the genoa tracks making
> the genoa cars a chore> or> even impossible to adjust.> >> If you want to
> put on docking cleats,> mount them to the boat proper.> You want a spring
> line cleat, don't use it> for a docking cleat.  You want a> boat engineered
> for docking? Have I got a> boat to sell you. No hands, no> straps, just
> three little docking eyes. See> attachment. Guaranteed to hold> for any
> winds. Just stop putting moving> docking cleats where they are not> invited
> to go.> >>> >> stan> >>> >>>> >>>> On 7/25/21 12:00 PM, THOMAS POLISE via
> Rhodes22-list wrote:> >>> I> found that there are no nuts or nut plates,
> just curious if anyone> else> had a similar situation.> >>>> >>>>> On Jul
> 25, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Todd> Tavares <tavares0947 at gmail.com>> wrote:>
> >>>>>> >>>>> Those are machine> screws. There should be nuts underneath or
> nut> >>>>> plates embedded in> the rail under the gelcoat.> >>>>>> >>>>>
> But it wouldn't surprise me if> the machine screws were just> >>>>>
> threaded into wood or even threaded> into epoxy. I've found more> >>>>>
> than a few questionable things which> needed to be properly>
> "re"engineered.> >>>>> Let us know what you find> once you dig into this
> problem.> >>>>>> >>>>> Todd T.> >>>>>> >>>>>> On> Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 11:10
> AM Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>>> wrote:> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Hi
> Thomas,> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Would you prefer gelcoat> damage?> >>>>>>> >>>>>>
> Never mount a dockline holding cleat without a> backing plate.> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards,> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Rick Lange> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun,
> Jul 25, 2021 at 11:02 AM THOMAS POLISE via> Rhodes22-list> >>>>>> <
> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone else notice
> that the jib track is just put in without> >>>>>>> bolts.  I added cleat to
> track which was yanked out in high winds.> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> --------------
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