[Rhodes22-list] CDI Furler Wire Halyard Snapped - What's at the top?
Allyn Baskerville
allynb at adsne.com
Fri Jun 4 16:57:00 EDT 2021
The sail on my boat isn't quite like yours - it's not rounded and there is a definite corner with about 160 degree angle. It looks more like a humpback whale, and there is a piece of Velcro coming out of the hump. My only thought is that the Velcro can be used to wrap the mast around the mast during transportation.
Also, I've been looking at Hayn hardware for the forestay. I missed the hardware length on the toggle at the top - I estimated 3/4" but it's 2.5". That makes the length from center-to-center of the pins at 28' 3-3/4". Roger, you said your boat doesn't have an IMF, correct? Are the mast heights any different between standard and IMF masts? I've measures 1/2 a dozen more times.
*** Whatever broke off is at the bottom of the lake. I've attached two pictures, and I was convinced until 20 minutes ago my boat's forestay was made just like Silverheels. However, look at the top of the wire picture. That looks like the tail end of a thread and not where there was a T. It doesn't seem reasonable there would be adjustment at the top, and I wish I had paid more attention to this area in the past.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 12:39 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CDI Furler Wire Halyard Snapped - What's at the top?
Allyn,
The attached photo is my mainsail spread out on my front lawn. There is a yellow tape measure stretched between the head and the clew. The battens are lying on top of the sail next to their respective batten pockets. You can see how much roach the sail has to the left of the tape measure.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
[cid:image003.jpg at 01D75946.ED10C140]
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Allyn Baskerville<mailto:allynb at adsne.com>
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 11:22 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CDI Furler Wire Halyard Snapped - What's at the top?
Yes, my R-22 has IMF. My sail has no battens, the angle of the front of the sail is > 90 degrees (I'd guess around 93 degrees, so the boom angles down slightly), and there is sail area aft of the line you mention. It's obviously not close to the pure triangle that you mention. It does have the bead on the leading edge to fit in the furler tube. I'll check out the backstay in more detail tomorrow - I've not really looked at this too much, and it's still adjusted to the point it was in when the boat was purchased.
Regarding the furling tube, I'd need to measure this, but I'd say there is at least 5-6". I don't think that would be a problem shortening the forestay.
Thanks for the response, Roger.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 6:01 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CDI Furler Wire Halyard Snapped - What's at the top?
Allyn,
Remind me again, does your R-22 have IMF? S/V Dynamic Equilibrium has a conventional mainsail. The IMF mainsail does not have battens and less roach vs. a conventional mainsail. A mainsail is not a triangle. If you were to draw a line from the head to the clew, you would find a conventional mainsail has some sail area aft of this line and an IMF mainsail has almost none. In other words, an IMF mainsail is closer to a pure triangle vs. a conventional mainsail. This “extra” sail area is called roach. IMF mainsails don’t have the battens which are necessary to support the extra sail area in the roach, so they can’t have much roach. All else being equal, this lack of roach moves the center of effort (CE) of an IMF mainsail slightly forward vs. a conventional mainsail. This would mean the mast needs to be tilted slightly more aft on an IMF rig to balance the weather helm/lee helm balance. So, if you have IMF, your longer forestay measurement makes sense. Believe your tape measure, especially if you’ve measured it several times and gotten the same result. The real question is, do you like your boat’s present weather helm/lee hem balance? If you would like less weather helm, shorten the forestay. More weather helm, lengthen the forestay. Shortening the forestay by 3.5 inches would significantly reduce your weather helm.
You probably have more backstay adjustment than you think. Remember, you also have the double backstay adjuster rigging, which has a range of at least 12 inches. As long as the slack double backstays are long enough to step the mast and hook up the forestay pin to the bow chain plate, the double backstay adjuster will take up whatever slack remains. Another thing to consider – How long is your CDI furling tube? If you shortened the forestay by 3.5 inches, would the furling tube be too long? You might consider shortening the forestay until the upper end of the furling tube just clears the toggle joint at the masthead. That would be the best you can do to reduce weather helm without modifying your furling tube.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Allyn Baskerville<mailto:allynb at adsne.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 11:02 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CDI Furler Wire Halyard Snapped - What's at the top?
Thanks for the info. I've not been on another Rhodes, but I've spent considerable time on a Capri 22. Based on that, I'd say my boat has excessive weather helm, and I really appreciate the info you provided.
I've not made any adjustments to the forestay assembly, and the only thing I'm guessing on is adding 3/4" for the piece of the toggle joint that broke off to the point where the pin goes through. I measured this 6 times, and 3 times I came up with about the same measurement: 28' 1-3/4" +/- 1/8" center to center. Just to clarify, the distance from the center of the pin that goes through the chain plate to where the toggle fork broke is 28' 1", then I added 3/4" for where the piece broke off to where I think the pin would be. The forestay wire is 27' 6-1/4" (taken to the outer edge of the swage crimp). I really think I'd run out of adjustment on the backstays if the forestay was about 3.5" shorter. I'll go back out to my boat, but I'd be surprised if there was more than 1.5-2" of adjustment available on the backstays.
You also mentioned chloride stress cracking fatigue failure. The boat was a one owner and came from Wisconsin and had a Wisconsin title, and I don't know if it was ever sailed in salt water. The hull was coated in mineral deposits, which I continue to work on. But then our lake water isn't much better.
I worked on this email far to long, but I'm hoping it's relatively clear to understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 8:46 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CDI Furler Wire Halyard Snapped - What's at the top?
Hi Allyn,
The pin-to-pin forestay measurement is 27 ft, 9-5/8 inches. Again, this is the distance from the center of the pin holding the headstay to the masthead toggle to the center of the pin holding the furler assembly to the bow chainplate. This measurement sets the overall tilt of the mast and it affects the weather helm/lee helm balance of the boat. Making the forestay longer tilts the mast aft, moves the center of effort (CE) of the sail plan aft, and increases weather helm. Conversely, making the forestay shorter tilts the mast forward, moves the CE forward, and increases lee helm. If you think your R-22 has too much weather or lee helm, now is a good time to fix it. Realistically, you can only change a few inches +/- from the above measurement without running into other issues with your standing rigging, like running out of adjustment on the backstays and lower sidestays. But, it will have a noticeable effect on your weather helm/lee helm balance.
It’s almost impossible to have neutral helm throughout the wind range. For example, S/V Dynamic Equilibrium is setup to have neutral helm in light air, slight lee helm once the angle of heel gets > 10 deg, transitioning to neutral helm, and then slight weather helm as the angle of heel increases. Neutral helm in light air is OK because you’re going so slow you don’t have any steering feel anyway. Going from slight lee helm to neutral helm back to slight weather helm as the wind speed increases means you are having to use much less rudder correction, which adds drag, and the boat has less tendency to round up in a moderate puff of wind. But, by the time you are putting the leeward rail in the water, you want weather helm and a tendency to round up in a gust because it’s safer than lee helm or neutral helm. As you might imagine, it took a lot of hours on the water to fine tune this setup. But, I’ve owned my R-22 since 1987 and I lived on a lake. This is how you set the mast up for racing.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: ROGER PIHLAJA<mailto:roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 2, 2021 5:57 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CDI Furler Wire Halyard Snapped - What's at the top?
Allyn,
The measurement you need is from the center of the pin at the masthead to the center of the pin at the bow chain plate. I’m due to be released from the hospital tomorrow evening. I am certain I have that measurement written down in my Harken Roller Furling manual because I had to specify it when I ordered the new forestay from Harken. I upgraded from the CDI furler to a Harken Unit 0 furler many years ago. The Harken furler has upper and lower swivels in order to take full advantage of a foam luff pad on the genoa. When I get home, I’ll look up the measurement and forward it to you.
Over the years, I’ve replaced nearly all the standing rigging on my boat. I like the West Marine rigging service. Look in the back of their catalog.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 2, 2021, at 5:40 PM, Allyn Baskerville <allynb at adsne.com> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have forestay length measurements? I'm going to remeasure tonight, but I've already measured twice. I'm surprised at how much longer my measurements were.
>
> 27' 8-1/4" wire only, 27' 11-1/2 with fittings on the end.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
> Richard Beytagh
> Sent: Wednesday, June 2, 2021 10:25 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CDI Furler Wire Halyard Snapped - What's at the top?
>
> I've had great service from a company called Dwyer Mast (
> https://www.dwyermast.com/) and I know they used to do quite a lot of
> work for Stan at GB. If you give them the right dimensions they'll ake
> up a new f'stay for you
>
>
> ~~~ _/) ~~~
>
> Richard Beytagh
> Phone: 828 337 0180
>
>
>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 9:28 AM Allyn Baskerville <allynb at adsne.com> wrote:
>>
>> I should mention that my boat is 2001. I'm not sure what changes were
>> made over the years.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
>> Allyn Baskerville
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 2, 2021 8:25 AM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CDI Furler Wire Halyard Snapped - What's
>> at the top?
>>
>> Sorry folks, but I didn't mean halyard - it was the forestay. I just
>> watched the YouTube video on Silverheels, and the forestay toggle
>> joint broke at the top fitting exactly like this - the genoa also
>> dropped in the water exactly as described in the video.
>>
>> I measured the forestay, and the wire only is 27' 8-1/4" and with the
>> fittings (from the top of where the toggle joint should be to the
>> bottom of the top threaded part that goes into the turnbuckle) is 27'
>> 11-1/2". I looked online and found one place that said it was 27' and
>> another 25'6". I measured both of the dimensions twice. Does anyone
>> have the dimensions of what this should be?
>>
>> Someone I know recommended sta-lok, but the smallest I can find the
>> toggle joint is for 5/32" wire and not 1/8". Is there another option,
>> or should I look at the 5/32" option? I don't have a swaging tool.
>>
>> Thanks, all.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
>> ROGER PIHLAJA
>> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 3:50 PM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CDI Furler Wire Halyard Snapped - What's
>> at the top?
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> S/V Silver Heels experienced scenario #1 from my previous post. If
>> Allyn’s boat experienced the same issue; then, we may have a problem area.
>> We might want to warn the whole Rhodes list to inspect the toggle
>> joints on the top of their forestays. From your U-Tube video, your
>> failure looked like a chloride stress cracking fatigue failure. Such
>> failures are common with 300 series stainless steel alloys in a salt
>> water environment. They can be early detected by dye penetrant, magnaflux, or ultrasonic testing.
>> Dye penetrant would be the easiest for the average boat owner. All
>> boats that sail on salt water would be subject to this issue.
>>
>> Roger Pihlaja
>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On May 28, 2021, at 4:10 PM, Peter Nyberg <peter at sunnybeeches.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Allyn,
>>>
>>> I had a similar adventure, and made a video about the problem and
>>> the
>> fix. There's a pretty good shot of the top of the mast in there too.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbKIYYFU73s&t=5s
>>>
>>> Best of luck,
>>>
>>> Peter
>>
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