[Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications

[ROGER PIHLAJA]

Rick,

We were having a discussion of mainsail trim and traveler use in heavy air wherein the rig needs to be depowered in gusts and then quickly brought back on line after the gust has passed.  Mainsail shape for <= 10 knots is considered light air and is a different subject.  As you noted, the optimum light air mainsail shape is achieved with a different traveler car position and mainsheet tension vs heavy air.  In light air, it is also much less likely the rig will need to be depowered as per the original discussion.

It is beyond the scope of my job description to give tutorials on sail trim in all possible conditions. I suggest you take a class or go racing.

Stan,  

I give up!  I’ve tried to explain the merits of your GBI 29 Traveler to the best of my ability.  But, it’s not working.  If you want to jump into this discussion, go ahead.  But, I’m done.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 25, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com> wrote:
> Roger,
> 
> When I sail close hauled in under 10 knots, I point highest when the
> traveller is all the way to the leeward end of the bar.  Only in stronger
> winds do I move the traveller no tighter than midships.  So even the most
> responsive traveller doesn't have the room to dump much wind.
> 
> The only use I can think of for a really responsive traveller is in a
> frequent tacking situation.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Rick Lange
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:01 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:
>> Ric,
>> I don’t understand why you think the GBI 29 Traveler is too slow to be
>> useful for depowering the rig?  There is nothing to uncleat or cleat, you
>> just push or pull on the control line and the traveler car moves.  It’s at
>> least as fast as the mainsheet.  Again, I sail with one hand on the control
>> line and the other on the tiller extension.  So, I don’t even need to reach
>> for the control line.  The traveler car movement is fast, positive, and
>> controlled.
>> Roger Pihlaja
>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>> From: Ric Stott<mailto:ric at stottarchitecture.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 12:42 PM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications
>> Hi Roger
>> I’ve been racing sailboats all my life and agree with everything you said
>> except, the GBI traveler that I bought from Stan is not operable quickly
>> enough to make it an effective and valuable tool to depower when the boat
>> is overpowered.
>> Maybe I don’t know how to use it correctly. I like it for what it is but
>> it has limitations.
>> Ric
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> On Mar 25, 2021, at 12:35 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Richard,
>>> The way the traveler is used to bring the boom to the boat’s centerline
>> is the traveler car is positioned to windward and then the mainsheet is
>> tensioned.  On the Rhodes 22, this means there is up to 5 feet of traveler
>> bar for the car to move to leeward if necessary.  Moving the end of the
>> boom 5 feet to leeward is a huge amount of depowering on the mainsail.  In
>> fact, on S/V Dynamic Equilibrium, if dumping the traveler is not enough to
>> keep the boat on its feet in a gust, we use that as an indication of when
>> its time to reef the mainsail.  Note, if dumping the traveler is not
>> sufficient, you can always uncleat the mainsheet and let it run.  But, we
>> regard this as the equivalent of having the pressure safety valve pop open
>> on a pressure vessel.  It’s undesirable and ugly when it happens.  The GBI
>> 29 Traveler car is positively moved from one position to another by pushing
>> or pulling on the control line.  You never uncleat the control line and let
>> the traveler car just slide on its own.  There are several advantages:
>>> 1.  Because the GBI 29 Traveler control lines are one continuous loop,
>> there is no chance of a line getting snarled or fouled like there is when
>> using the mainsheet to depower the mainsail.
>>> 2.  You never have to assist the boom to move because of snarls or
>> friction in the mainsheet blocks.  Manipulate the GBI 29 Traveler control
>> lines and the end of the boom moves right now, every time, no more and no
>> less than you ask for.
>>> 3.  The end of the boom does not rise up as much as when the mainsheet
>> is used to depower the mainsail.  This means there is not as much twist
>> introduced into the top half of the mainsail and the mainsail does not
>> interfere with the genoa as much.
>>> 4.  After the gust has passed, the GBI 29 Traveler can move the end of
>> the boom back to the centerline of the boat much more quickly vs the
>> mainsheet (~3X less line to be manipulated).  Again there is no chance of a
>> tangle or snarl and the end of the boom is already down where it belongs so
>> the top of the mainsail is not twisted off.
>>> So, for all the above reasons, I strongly disagree with you, Richard.
>> Look in any book or video tutorial on sailing fast to windward and you will
>> find they agree with me.  Although the details of mainsheet travelers
>> varies from boat to boat, the proper usage of them does not change.  The
>> GBI 29 Traveler is a unique design that I had not encountered in a lifetime
>> of sailing.  I guess that’s why Stan got a patent on it!  Once you get used
>> to it, it’s a marvelous piece of equipment.
>>> Before you criticize again, I would ask you to try sailing with one hand
>> on the tiller extension and the other on the traveler control line.  You
>> will quickly come to appreciate the degree of fine control this gives you.
>> It’s the sailing equivalent of the “stick and throttle” feel that fighter
>> pilots like so much.  If this doesn’t change your mind; then, I guess
>> nothing will.
>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>>> From: Richard Stott<mailto:ric at stottarchitecture.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 9:42 AM
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications
>>> When sailing to whether, the traveler is used to bring the boom to the
>> boat’s centerline.
>>> This improves sail shape, the relationship of the Jib/Main and ability
>> to point higher.
>>> It is not the tool on a Rhodes to depower the Rig in a gust - use the
>> main sheet for that.
>>> Ric
>>> Dadventure
>>> Richard Stott, AIA, LEED AP
>>> www.stottarchitecture.com<http://www.stottarchitecture.com<
>> http://www.stottarchitecture.com%3chttp:/www.stottarchitecture.com>>
>>> Office  631-283-1777
>>> Cell            516-965-3164
>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> Roger,
>>>> That piece of gear is for setting your sails to the prevailing wind.
>> It is
>>>> too cumbersome and limited for responding to gusts.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Rick Lange
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 4:51 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> Rick,
>>>>> One more question, beginner sailboats do not come equipped with
>> mainsail
>>>>> travelers; but, more advanced sailboats nearly all have travelers.  If
>> you
>>>>> don’t sail your Rhodes 22 to windward while playing the traveler, what
>> do
>>>>> you think that piece of gear is for?
>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 4:34 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>> If you have so much mainsail area up that dumping the traveler is not
>>>>> sufficient to keep the boat upright in a gust; then, you need to reef
>> down
>>>>> the mainsail.  The more efficient reefed mainsail shape will more than
>>>>> compensate for the greater unreeled mainsail area that spends a lot of
>> time
>>>>> all twisted and luffing.  Besides, it makes you look like a real
>> amateur
>>>>> and it’s hard on the sail.
>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 4:25 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>>> I would welcome the chance to match race you.  I would be willing to
>>>>> bet considerable money that your strategy is wrong and I would beat you
>>>>> decisively.
>>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roger,
>>>>>>>> We're talking about sailing close hauled in a stiff breeze
>> (15-20knt)
>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> sudden gusts that will round up the boat.  The only mainsail shape
>> that
>>>>>>>> matters during a gust is the shape that quickly dumps enough wind to
>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>> the boat on course without luffing the jib and, in the case of the
>> R22,
>>>>>>>> sailing flat.
>>>>>>>> Easing the main sheet is the quickest way to react while affording
>> the
>>>>>>>> tactile control needed to ease and recover appropriately as the
>> gust
>>>>>>>> varies.  In addition to being quicker than a traveller can move,
>>>>>>>> sheet control is not as restrictive as a traveller in allowing
>> greater
>>>>> boom
>>>>>>>> motion for dumping enough wind when there is a really strong gust.
>>>>>>>> For small sloops up to 32', sailing close hauled by feeling sheet
>>>>> tension
>>>>>>>> is the fastest way to go.  I have sailed with totally blind crews
>> and
>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> sail closer to the wind than many sighted sailors distracted by
>>>>> watching
>>>>>>>> sail shape.
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Rick Lange
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 1:48 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <
>> roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>>>>> My 1976 Rhodes Continental 22 came with a cable style traveler.
>> This
>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> not a very good setup and I soon upgraded to the GBI bar-style
>>>>> traveler
>>>>>>>>> that is mounted on the backstay.  This traveler was much better
>> and I
>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> it for many years.  However, because the mainsail trimmer needed to
>>>>> be in
>>>>>>>>> line with the clam cleats on each end of the traveler bar in order
>> to
>>>>> cleat
>>>>>>>>> off the control line, it was very difficult for the helmsman to
>> also
>>>>> play
>>>>>>>>> the traveler.  This was especially an issue when the helmsman was
>>>>> sitting
>>>>>>>>> up on the windward gunnel (i.e. hiking out) and the traveler needed
>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>> trimmed to leeward.  GBI’s 2nd
>>>>>>>>> (3rd?) generation traveler pretty much solves all these issues.
>>>>> Properly
>>>>>>>>> adjusted, the latest generation traveler has a built-in slip
>>>>> characteristic
>>>>>>>>> that will save you in an accidental gibe or a knockdown gust.   The
>>>>>>>>> traveler control line is a continuous loop, which enables the
>>>>> helmsman to
>>>>>>>>> play the traveler to windward or leeward without leaving his hiking
>>>>> station
>>>>>>>>> up on the windward gunnel.  The helmsman drives with one hand on
>> the
>>>>> tiller
>>>>>>>>> extension, the other on the traveler control line, and multitasks.
>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> helmsman can feel the weather/lee helm pressure thru the tiller and
>>>>> is in
>>>>>>>>> the best position to adjust the traveler to optimize the weather
>>>>> helm/lee
>>>>>>>>> helm balance.  I’ve been sailing with the new generation traveler
>> for
>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>> seasons now.  If you care about boat speed and sail short handed,
>> this
>>>>>>>>> upgrade is well worth the price!  On a close hauled course in 10-15
>>>>> knot of
>>>>>>>>> wind, If you get into a drag race with another Rhodes 22 that is
>>>>> properly
>>>>>>>>> using  its latest generation traveler vs you using your mainsheet,
>>>>> you will
>>>>>>>>> fall behind by ~30-40 sec/nm.  In a PHRF race, that’s huge!  Other
>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> buying new sails, there is probably no other upgrade that offers
>> this
>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>> performance per dollar spent.
>>>>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>>>>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>>>>>>>> Windows 10
>>>>>>>>> From: ROGER PIHLAJA<mailto:roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 12:12 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler
>>>>> Modifications
>>>>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>>>>> When you ease the traveler, the end of the boom does not rise as it
>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>> when you ease the mainsheet.  Thus the mainsail shape is affected
>>>>> much less
>>>>>>>>> when you ease the traveler vs the mainsheet.  When you trim the
>>>>> traveler
>>>>>>>>> back to where it was, the flow reattaches itself much quicker.
>>>>> Overall,
>>>>>>>>> boat speed stays higher.  That’s why you play the traveler much
>> more
>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> the mainsheet.
>>>>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rick Lange <
>> sloopblueheron at gmail.com
>>>>>> Trim
>>>>>>>>> the trawrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>> Why the traveller?  The sheet is so much faster and gives greater
>>>>> range
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> boom movement.
>>>>>>>>>> Rick Lange
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 9:13 AM JeffSmith <
>> jeffsmithphoto at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> When sailing to weather I like to play the traveler (as opposed
>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>>>>>> sheet) in the puffs while sitting on the high side cockpit
>> combing
>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> hiking stick.
>>>>>>>>>>> A continuous 5mm line with the core removed where it travels
>>>>> through the
>>>>>>>>>>> blocks on the New Traveler and possibly changing the purchase
>> from
>>>>> 5 to
>>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> 3 to 1 is part of my plan. Before holes are drilled in the
>> cockpit
>>>>>>>>> sides to
>>>>>>>>>>> accomodate turning blocks to lead the continuous line forward
>>>>> around the
>>>>>>>>>>> perimeter of the cockpit, I would welcome input.
>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Smith
>>>>>>>>>>> 2009 R22 #101 RADIANT
>>>>>>>>>>> Atlantic Highlands Municpal Harbor
>>>>>>>>>>> Atlantic Highlands, NJ
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from: http://rhodes-22.1065344.n5.nabble.com/