[Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications

Thu Mar 25 14:45:09 EDT 2021

Richard,

What are you hitting your knuckles on?

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 25, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Roger,
> 
> When I sail close hauled in under 10 knots, I point highest when the
> traveller is all the way to the leeward end of the bar.  Only in stronger
> winds do I move the traveller no tighter than midships.  So even the most
> responsive traveller doesn't have the room to dump much wind.
> 
> The only use I can think of for a really responsive traveller is in a
> frequent tacking situation.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Rick Lange
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:01 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:
>> Ric,
>> I don’t understand why you think the GBI 29 Traveler is too slow to be
>> useful for depowering the rig?  There is nothing to uncleat or cleat, you
>> just push or pull on the control line and the traveler car moves.  It’s at
>> least as fast as the mainsheet.  Again, I sail with one hand on the control
>> line and the other on the tiller extension.  So, I don’t even need to reach
>> for the control line.  The traveler car movement is fast, positive, and
>> controlled.
>> Roger Pihlaja
>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>> From: Ric Stott<mailto:ric at stottarchitecture.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 12:42 PM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications
>> Hi Roger
>> I’ve been racing sailboats all my life and agree with everything you said
>> except, the GBI traveler that I bought from Stan is not operable quickly
>> enough to make it an effective and valuable tool to depower when the boat
>> is overpowered.
>> Maybe I don’t know how to use it correctly. I like it for what it is but
>> it has limitations.
>> Ric
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> On Mar 25, 2021, at 12:35 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Richard,
>>> The way the traveler is used to bring the boom to the boat’s centerline
>> is the traveler car is positioned to windward and then the mainsheet is
>> tensioned.  On the Rhodes 22, this means there is up to 5 feet of traveler
>> bar for the car to move to leeward if necessary.  Moving the end of the
>> boom 5 feet to leeward is a huge amount of depowering on the mainsail.  In
>> fact, on S/V Dynamic Equilibrium, if dumping the traveler is not enough to
>> keep the boat on its feet in a gust, we use that as an indication of when
>> its time to reef the mainsail.  Note, if dumping the traveler is not
>> sufficient, you can always uncleat the mainsheet and let it run.  But, we
>> regard this as the equivalent of having the pressure safety valve pop open
>> on a pressure vessel.  It’s undesirable and ugly when it happens.  The GBI
>> 29 Traveler car is positively moved from one position to another by pushing
>> or pulling on the control line.  You never uncleat the control line and let
>> the traveler car just slide on its own.  There are several advantages:
>>> 1.  Because the GBI 29 Traveler control lines are one continuous loop,
>> there is no chance of a line getting snarled or fouled like there is when
>> using the mainsheet to depower the mainsail.
>>> 2.  You never have to assist the boom to move because of snarls or
>> friction in the mainsheet blocks.  Manipulate the GBI 29 Traveler control
>> lines and the end of the boom moves right now, every time, no more and no
>> less than you ask for.
>>> 3.  The end of the boom does not rise up as much as when the mainsheet
>> is used to depower the mainsail.  This means there is not as much twist
>> introduced into the top half of the mainsail and the mainsail does not
>> interfere with the genoa as much.
>>> 4.  After the gust has passed, the GBI 29 Traveler can move the end of
>> the boom back to the centerline of the boat much more quickly vs the
>> mainsheet (~3X less line to be manipulated).  Again there is no chance of a
>> tangle or snarl and the end of the boom is already down where it belongs so
>> the top of the mainsail is not twisted off.
>>> So, for all the above reasons, I strongly disagree with you, Richard.
>> Look in any book or video tutorial on sailing fast to windward and you will
>> find they agree with me.  Although the details of mainsheet travelers
>> varies from boat to boat, the proper usage of them does not change.  The
>> GBI 29 Traveler is a unique design that I had not encountered in a lifetime
>> of sailing.  I guess that’s why Stan got a patent on it!  Once you get used
>> to it, it’s a marvelous piece of equipment.
>>> Before you criticize again, I would ask you to try sailing with one hand
>> on the tiller extension and the other on the traveler control line.  You
>> will quickly come to appreciate the degree of fine control this gives you.
>> It’s the sailing equivalent of the “stick and throttle” feel that fighter
>> pilots like so much.  If this doesn’t change your mind; then, I guess
>> nothing will.
>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>>> From: Richard Stott<mailto:ric at stottarchitecture.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 9:42 AM
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications
>>> When sailing to whether, the traveler is used to bring the boom to the
>> boat’s centerline.
>>> This improves sail shape, the relationship of the Jib/Main and ability
>> to point higher.
>>> It is not the tool on a Rhodes to depower the Rig in a gust - use the
>> main sheet for that.
>>> Ric
>>> Dadventure
>>> Richard Stott, AIA, LEED AP
>>> www.stottarchitecture.com<http://www.stottarchitecture.com<
>> http://www.stottarchitecture.com%3chttp:/www.stottarchitecture.com>>
>>> Office  631-283-1777
>>> Cell            516-965-3164
>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> Roger,
>>>> That piece of gear is for setting your sails to the prevailing wind.
>> It is
>>>> too cumbersome and limited for responding to gusts.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Rick Lange
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 4:51 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> Rick,
>>>>> One more question, beginner sailboats do not come equipped with
>> mainsail
>>>>> travelers; but, more advanced sailboats nearly all have travelers.  If
>> you
>>>>> don’t sail your Rhodes 22 to windward while playing the traveler, what
>> do
>>>>> you think that piece of gear is for?
>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 4:34 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>> If you have so much mainsail area up that dumping the traveler is not
>>>>> sufficient to keep the boat upright in a gust; then, you need to reef
>> down
>>>>> the mainsail.  The more efficient reefed mainsail shape will more than
>>>>> compensate for the greater unreeled mainsail area that spends a lot of
>> time
>>>>> all twisted and luffing.  Besides, it makes you look like a real
>> amateur
>>>>> and it’s hard on the sail.
>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 4:25 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>>> I would welcome the chance to match race you.  I would be willing to
>>>>> bet considerable money that your strategy is wrong and I would beat you
>>>>> decisively.
>>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roger,
>>>>>>>> We're talking about sailing close hauled in a stiff breeze
>> (15-20knt)
>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> sudden gusts that will round up the boat.  The only mainsail shape
>> that
>>>>>>>> matters during a gust is the shape that quickly dumps enough wind to
>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>> the boat on course without luffing the jib and, in the case of the
>> R22,
>>>>>>>> sailing flat.
>>>>>>>> Easing the main sheet is the quickest way to react while affording
>> the
>>>>>>>> tactile control needed to ease and recover appropriately as the
>> gust
>>>>>>>> varies.  In addition to being quicker than a traveller can move,
>>>>>>>> sheet control is not as restrictive as a traveller in allowing
>> greater
>>>>> boom
>>>>>>>> motion for dumping enough wind when there is a really strong gust.
>>>>>>>> For small sloops up to 32', sailing close hauled by feeling sheet
>>>>> tension
>>>>>>>> is the fastest way to go.  I have sailed with totally blind crews
>> and
>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> sail closer to the wind than many sighted sailors distracted by
>>>>> watching
>>>>>>>> sail shape.
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Rick Lange
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 1:48 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <
>> roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>>>>> My 1976 Rhodes Continental 22 came with a cable style traveler.
>> This
>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> not a very good setup and I soon upgraded to the GBI bar-style
>>>>> traveler
>>>>>>>>> that is mounted on the backstay.  This traveler was much better
>> and I
>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> it for many years.  However, because the mainsail trimmer needed to
>>>>> be in
>>>>>>>>> line with the clam cleats on each end of the traveler bar in order
>> to
>>>>> cleat
>>>>>>>>> off the control line, it was very difficult for the helmsman to
>> also
>>>>> play
>>>>>>>>> the traveler.  This was especially an issue when the helmsman was
>>>>> sitting
>>>>>>>>> up on the windward gunnel (i.e. hiking out) and the traveler needed
>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>> trimmed to leeward.  GBI’s 2nd
>>>>>>>>> (3rd?) generation traveler pretty much solves all these issues.
>>>>> Properly
>>>>>>>>> adjusted, the latest generation traveler has a built-in slip
>>>>> characteristic
>>>>>>>>> that will save you in an accidental gibe or a knockdown gust.   The
>>>>>>>>> traveler control line is a continuous loop, which enables the
>>>>> helmsman to
>>>>>>>>> play the traveler to windward or leeward without leaving his hiking
>>>>> station
>>>>>>>>> up on the windward gunnel.  The helmsman drives with one hand on
>> the
>>>>> tiller
>>>>>>>>> extension, the other on the traveler control line, and multitasks.
>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> helmsman can feel the weather/lee helm pressure thru the tiller and
>>>>> is in
>>>>>>>>> the best position to adjust the traveler to optimize the weather
>>>>> helm/lee
>>>>>>>>> helm balance.  I’ve been sailing with the new generation traveler
>> for
>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>> seasons now.  If you care about boat speed and sail short handed,
>> this
>>>>>>>>> upgrade is well worth the price!  On a close hauled course in 10-15
>>>>> knot of
>>>>>>>>> wind, If you get into a drag race with another Rhodes 22 that is
>>>>> properly
>>>>>>>>> using  its latest generation traveler vs you using your mainsheet,
>>>>> you will
>>>>>>>>> fall behind by ~30-40 sec/nm.  In a PHRF race, that’s huge!  Other
>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> buying new sails, there is probably no other upgrade that offers
>> this
>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>> performance per dollar spent.
>>>>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>>>>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>>>>>>>> Windows 10
>>>>>>>>> From: ROGER PIHLAJA<mailto:roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 12:12 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler
>>>>> Modifications
>>>>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>>>>> When you ease the traveler, the end of the boom does not rise as it
>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>> when you ease the mainsheet.  Thus the mainsail shape is affected
>>>>> much less
>>>>>>>>> when you ease the traveler vs the mainsheet.  When you trim the
>>>>> traveler
>>>>>>>>> back to where it was, the flow reattaches itself much quicker.
>>>>> Overall,
>>>>>>>>> boat speed stays higher.  That’s why you play the traveler much
>> more
>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> the mainsheet.
>>>>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rick Lange <
>> sloopblueheron at gmail.com
>>>>>> Trim
>>>>>>>>> the trawrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>> Why the traveller?  The sheet is so much faster and gives greater
>>>>> range
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> boom movement.
>>>>>>>>>> Rick Lange
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 9:13 AM JeffSmith <
>> jeffsmithphoto at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> When sailing to weather I like to play the traveler (as opposed
>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>>>>>> sheet) in the puffs while sitting on the high side cockpit
>> combing
>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> hiking stick.
>>>>>>>>>>> A continuous 5mm line with the core removed where it travels
>>>>> through the
>>>>>>>>>>> blocks on the New Traveler and possibly changing the purchase
>> from
>>>>> 5 to
>>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> 3 to 1 is part of my plan. Before holes are drilled in the
>> cockpit
>>>>>>>>> sides to
>>>>>>>>>>> accomodate turning blocks to lead the continuous line forward
>>>>> around the
>>>>>>>>>>> perimeter of the cockpit, I would welcome input.
>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Smith
>>>>>>>>>>> 2009 R22 #101 RADIANT
>>>>>>>>>>> Atlantic Highlands Municpal Harbor
>>>>>>>>>>> Atlantic Highlands, NJ
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from: http://rhodes-22.1065344.n5.nabble.com/