[Rhodes22-list] Axle location

Fri May 21 14:41:11 EDT 2021

Slim,

As I recall, Fandango is a newer R-22 with IMF mainsail and a much fancier interior.  Your boat and trailer probably weighs more than 3100 lbs when rigged for trailering with full tanks and the outboard mounted on the transom.  3600 lbs wouldn’t surprise me; but, I would get it weighed to be certain.  Then, I would use the > 10% of the gross trailer weight criteria for the minimum tongue weight.  If it’s stable on the highway; then, you have enough tongue weight and might be able to back off a little.  But, having the trailer go into a death sway on the expressway is terrifying!  So, be careful.  On my boat/trailer combination, the worst case scenarios are strong crosswinds &/or the shockwave from a passing truck.  The trailer might be nominally stable only to fail an “insult test” and go into a bad wobble.  My wife won’t allow me to have that kind of excitement!  If the present tongue weight isn’t causing some other issue, like something rubbing or dragging on the ground, what’s the incentive for reducing the tongue weight?

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Steven Alm<mailto:stevenalm at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 12:50 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location

This discussion has made me curious, and after seeing Todd's drawing I went
out and measured and yes, my front axle is 6" in front of what his drawing
shows, and my rear axle is 36" behind that. But Roger, you now have me
wondering if my tongue weight is too much. I haven't taken the bathroom
scale to it — and I will — but if it's more than approx. 310 lbs, wouldn't
I be able to achieve that by loading the boat a little farther back? That
would be easy to do and I could be pretty exact by positioning the bow stop
slightly rearward when I load. Thanks.

Slim
Fandango

On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 10:26 AM Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca> wrote:

> Perfect. Thanks Roger. That is much simpler than what I had imagined. I
> appreciate your patience as now that I see it, it should have been obvious
> to me.
>
> My boat has always had a full marine toilet and holding tank. When I got
> my boat about 26 years ago the holding tank was immediately behind the
> V-birth and there was no water tank on the boat nor was there any obvious
> place where one had been even though there was a deck fill. After my
> rebuild I replaced the old metal, and leaking, holding tank with a smaller
> poly tank in the same place as the previous tank had been but I also had
> room for my battery. Because I just day sail in recent years my holding
> tank is empty all of the time - so no weight there to speak of.
>
> For water I am using a removable jerry can that stays below the sink
> midship on the starboard side. Again, there is rarely any water in it. When
> I need water I just take the can up to my house and fill what I need. I
> have a deck fill installed but it is easier to just fill the tank given
> that my boat is docked in front of my house.
>
> Where is your water tank located?
>
> Graham Stewart
> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> Kingston Ontario
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf
> Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 8:03 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
>
> Graham,
>
> You will need a bathroom scale that reads up to 350 lbs and 2 hydraulic
> bottle jacks.  First load up the boat as you will have it for trailering it
> down the road.  In my case, that includes a full tank of fuel, empty
> porta-potti, full water tank, and of course, the outboard mounted on the
> transom.  I assume you have a tongue jack?  If not, you will need a jack
> stand or something to support the end of the tongue on top of the scale.
> Start by putting the tongue jack on top of the scale and get a tongue
> weight measurement.  The rule of thumb for tongue weight is about 10% of
> the gross trailer weight in order to have stability.  Figure your boat and
> single axle trailer weighs about 3100 lbs.  So, you need about 310 lbs of
> tongue weight.  Now, jack the trailer frame up from the same spot on both
> sides.  I would start immediately behind the tires.  Get the trailer’s
> frame at approximately the same level as when it was supported by the
> tires.  Note that you will probably have to remove the tires to get it low
> enough.  Now, measure the tongue weight as before.  It should be greater
> than before.  Keep moving the jack points aft until you find a spot on the
> frame that gives you about 310 lbs of tongue weight.  That’s where your
> single axle needs to be moved to.
>
> By the way, your R-22 is the same year as mine.  The early R-22’s had
> porta-potti’s, not marine toilets and holding tanks.  Where is your water
> tank located?
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 9:59 PM
> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
>
> Thanks to all for their suggestions. It seems that the best solution for
> me would be to have the axle moved back. I don't trailer enough to justify
> the second axle and the other option to add weight to the tongue seem to me
> to be a workaround rather than a fix and moving the boat forward is both
> very difficult and damaging to the hull. The area immediately aft of the
> V-birth hold my holding tank and battery, not my water tank,  so obviously
> I am not going to keep my holding tank full permanently.
>
> The big question for me now is to determine exactly how far aft I will
> have the axle moved. If anyone can suggest how I might determine that
> distance I would be grateful to hear your suggestions.
>
> Graham Stewart
> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> Kingston Ontario
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf
> Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 5:20 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
>
> Graham,
>
> Assuming you have a 15 gallon water tank mounted at the aft end of the
> V-berths, filling it would add ~125 lbs.  This additional weight would be
> located at about the front end of the bunks on the trailer.  Because the
> weight is not located right on the end of the tongue, you will not see the
> full 125 lbs as additional tongue weight.  On S/V Dynamic Equilibrium and
> my Lil Dude trailer, filling the water tank adds about 48 lbs of tongue
> weight.  The rest of the 125 lbs is loaded onto the trailer wheels because
> of the location of the water tank.  If the tongue weight situation on your
> trailer is causing marginal stability; this extra 48 lbs may help.  It
> certainly won’t hurt.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On May 20, 2021, at 4:59 PM, Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Graham,
> >
> > Fill your water tank.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rick Lange
> >
> >
> >> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 4:54 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Graham,
> >>
> >> Whatever the reference point or the measurement, the fact that your
> tongue
> >> weight is too low tells you everything you need to know.  If you don’t
> want
> >> to just live with it, your options are: move the single axle backward on
> >> the trailer, add a 2nd axle behind the 1st, move the boat forward on the
> >> trailer, or add weight to the tongue.
> >>
> >> Roger Pihlaja
> >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>
> >> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> >> Windows 10
> >>
> >> From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 12:50 PM
> >> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle locattion
> >>
> >> Sorry for the confusion. Because all of the other dimensions matched the
> >> drawing I used the distance from the axle to the back because it was the
> >> easiest measurement forgetting that others might have a different
> >> structure.
> >>
> >> The distance between the center of the axle and the point where the
> >> extension enters the trailer is 165" while that distance on the drawing
> is
> >> 172"
> >>
> >> Graham Stewart
> >> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf
> >> Of
> >> Lowe, Rob
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 12:33 PM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle locattion
> >>
> >> I agree with Todd that the reference point should be the center of the
> ball
> >> socket.  That's where the tongue weight is measure and where the towing
> >> force is applied. - Rob
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of
> Todd
> >> Tavares <tavares0947 at gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 11:11 AM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle locattion
> >>
> >> By looking at these old drawings, I guess the datum point/benchmark
> really
> >> should have been the center of the ball socket, which would have better
> >> standardized the tongue weight (and balance). That would have to assume
> the
> >> coupler and extension lengths were somewhat uniform.
> >>
> >> Measuring the axle position from the rear of the trailer frame or the
> rear
> >> bunk support is not the best reference.
> >> Also, the angles of the bunks are a little off (I was never good at
> trig).
> >> Thankfully my carpenter's calculator has a rise over run function. The
> >> angles for the bunks are closer to 22.5° in the rear and 37° in the
> front
> >> (from horizontal).
> >>
> >> I seemed to remember there was approximately a 6" difference in axle
> >> positions between owners' trailers, but most reported the more rearward
> >> dimension so I changed the drawing. There may be early drawings of the
> >> trailer in the archives before I edited the drawing which show the
> forward
> >> measurements..but I do not know.
> >>
> >> Todd T.
> >>
> >>> On Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:46 AM Cary Tolbert <retiredtoby at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Graham, my boat is an '86 and the trailer that came with the boat is a
> >>> Triad.. Therefore I must assume the trailer is an 86 as well. I just
> >>> measured from the end of the trailer to the center of the axle and it
> is
> >> ,
> >>> DRUM ROLL  . . . . . . . . . 75 1/2 inch. Sorry to add to the
> confusion..
> >>> My front end measurements may also be off. I had the extension bar
> >> replaced
> >>> and last year added a braking system which added to the length of the
> >>> extension with a brake actuator.  Mike is the second generation in the
> >>> trailer company and I am sure the trailer has evolved over the years.
> >> You
> >>> know that Stan is always tinkering with something. I think my trailer
> was
> >>> manufactured in Connecticut . The newer trailers are made in NC.
> >>>
> >>> Best of luck
> >>> Cary
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:33 AM Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I just measured the location of my axle and compared it to the
> drawings
> >>>> prepared by Todd and found that my axle is 7" forward of what the
> >>> drawings
> >>>> specify. That strikes me as a pretty significant difference. I am
> >>> wondering
> >>>> if the others who have found it impossible to get their boats far
> >> enough
> >>>> forward might also measure the distance between the back of their
> >> trailer
> >>>> to the center of the axle to see if this is the reason for the
> >>> difficulty.
> >>>> The drawing stipulates that this distance should be 70" but mine is
> >> 77".
> >>>>
> >>>> Does anyone know whether this dimension changed at some time between
> >>> older
> >>>> and newer iterations of the boat?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Graham Stewart
> >>>> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> >>>> Kingston Ontario
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>